Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)

[Moshe Green]

You can not buy it if you're uncomfortable with it, that doesn't mean it's against the halacha.

our discussion here is not regarding who is uncomfortable with it but if its against the Torah viewpoint and Hashkafa.
Also, for a magazine to pretend that they represent klal yisroel when they actually go against what our leaders say and hold should make every Torah Jew uncomfortable.
It's worth it to invest 1-2 hours in actually listening to the interview to know which agenda the owner of one of the most widely spread magazines in the Jewish World is pushing.

[Jellybelly]

Sure, it's distasteful to cover unpleasant topics, but it has to be done.

Has to be done??
Says who? Maybe certain topics aren’t meant to be talked about publicly....

Also worth noting, that at one point they had a Rav ( Rabbi Neustadt) but after he left, they now have an anonymous “rabbinical board” I tried asking them for names and they wouldn’t give me any.

[Euclid]

Has to be done??
Says who? Maybe certain topics aren’t meant to be talked about publicly....

Also worth noting, that at one point they had a Rav ( Rabbi Neustadt) but after he left, they now have an anonymous “rabbinical board” I tried asking them for names and they wouldn’t give me any.

Who are the rabbinical board for the others? Ami/Hamodia/Yated?

[Jellybelly]

What are these "chareidi views" people speak of? Publishing pictures of women is a big one, and hearing people try explain the source and value of that rule is always extremely underwhelming (at best). I'm clearly biased on this issue, but there is plenty of evidence of pictures of women in "Chareidi" magazines and newspapers of yesteryear.


The one area that isn't a nothingburger to me are the "bans" by gedolim. I have zero knowledge of this. If it is correct that the bans were made by them based on accurate info, then obviously that is damning. But it is well known that such bans are often made based on the gadol being fed misinformation or they are taken out of context (and often simply fabricated).

I have much to say about this topic in general but no patience in typing,  But I’ll address these 2 points.
Just curious, why are you biased in this issue?
The answer to why can’t we have women in the newspapers, even the Jewish Observer had. Well times have changed. Women going to the grocery today put on more makeup and dress fancier/ more provocative than any woman ever dressed going to a chasuna 30 years ago. It’s possible  that it’s not true in every community, but definitely true in many. So what are we supposed to do when it comes to publications? Say “oh, this lady is ugly, let’s put her in,  but this one is too attractive let’s leave her out” so I think a blanket ban, even if not written in shulchan Aruch, is definitely warranted in this day and age.
And regarding the Ban, I’ve heard from a few people, that he first tried writing for the Chareidi community in Israel and they saw right through and banned it, so he repackaged it and geared it to Americans and the rest is history.

[aygart]

Or read them online.
https://mishpacha.com/magazine/mishpacha/

This issue has a divorce cover feature, but doesn't seem to glorify it, rather "push for a halachically compatible prenup"
https://mishpacha.com/magazine/mishpacha-788/

This is not the one I was referring to (although it has it's own issues considering the resistance from most chareidi poskim to the concept). It was a while ago and my recollection of specifics is vague.

[aygart]

Just curious, why are you biased in this issue?

Without answering for him personally, it has been reported previously on DDF that the Lubavitcher Rebbe felt it was important to include girls in publications.

[aygart]

Who are the rabbinical board for the others? Ami/Hamodia/Yated?

Ami? LOL

[yr]

The simplist argument against including pictures of men and not women is that it creates a celeberty vacuum for young girls that can get filled by less than desirable alternatives. Boys can look up to and aspire to be like various jewish celebrities and gedolim who are very visible. Young girls have less visible women to look up to.

And it's not like pictures of men aren't censured. There's a big difference between an ad in a secular paper and an ad in one of our papers, even for men's clothing.

[zh cohen]

Without answering for him personally, it has been reported previously on DDF that the Lubavitcher Rebbe felt it was important to include girls in publications.

Yet, when Rabbi Gavriel Tzinner wrote to the Rebbe, questioning the publication of a picture of the Rebbetzin in a kovetz printed in her memory, the Rebbe instructed the ones who printed it to remove it from circulation.

What was not known at the time was that the Rebbe also responded to him, explaining why there was no halachic issue with printing the picture.

[Yehuda57]

I have much to say about this topic in general but no patience in typing,  But I’ll address these 2 points.
Just curious, why are you biased in this issue?

Because I believe VERY strongly that not only should pictures be allowed, significant effort should be made to ensure proper representation of women and girls in deeper ways than just recipes and cheesy stories. This is especially needed for children. I'm a Chabad chossid, and worked for a time in publishing a children's magazine. The Rebbe's instructions in this regard were numerous and detailed. You can read about some of it here.

And since I was blessed with a daughter, I've seen the ill effects of hiding women and girls first hand and it is infuriating. My daughter reads anything she can get her hands on, and without hearing a word from me or my wife, she gets upset and utterly confused about not being represented. Just a few examples that SHE brought up:
 
- The Yiddishe Kop books are awesome. She loves riddles, and it was a natural fit for her. She loved doing them and then asked why there are no girls. (I believe there actually are girls in there, but just few and far in between).
- Binah is a magazine FOR WOMEN, but they do not publish pictures of women. Totally absurd. But worse, they won't publish pictures of girls 4 and older. We haven't for years, but we used to get Binah mainly for the kids section for her to read. She would constantly badger us asking why they didn't have pictures of the very girls they were speaking about. But then they would publish illustrations of women not dressed tzniusly, including an illustration of a teacher standing at her desk in a tank top. What the heck kind of logic is that?
- A purim catalog for Toys 4 U was included, (I don't recall exactly, I believe it was for the dolls and costumes) they pixelated pictures of girls faces, but left short skirts, pants, and sleeveless parts in. They had goyishe characters and whatnot, but pixelated girls faces.

These bans are effectively sexualizing 4 year olds. They are ensuring women and girls have no representation, and then you want to ban social media when that's the only place left for them to have any sort of expression.

Believe me, I have lots more to say about this, but this will suffice to explain my "bias".

[Yehuda57]

Yet, when Rabbi Gabriel Tzinner wrote to the Rebbe, questioning the publication of a picture of the Rebbetzin in a kovetz printed in her memory, the Rebbe instructed the ones who printed it to remove it from circulation.

What was not known at the time was that the Rebbe also responded to him, explaining why there was no halachic issue with printing the picture.

IINM, the Rebbe also made distinctions for publications in locations where a distinct minhag was already in place.

[zh cohen]

IINM, the Rebbe also made distinctions for publications in locations where a distinct minhag was already in place.

The majority of the Mishpacha's target audience has a distinct minhag

[Yehuda57]

The majority of the Mishpacha's target audience has a distinct minhag

That's arguable. There's plenty of evidence the minhag in America was to publish. That changed. I don't know when and how, but the precedent to publish is there. One can argue that the change was from people pushing an unhealthy agenda and are packaging an extremist turn as "Chareidi hashkafah", much like the argument here is that Paley is pushing a certain agenda.

I'm not so passionate about Mishpacha and such magazines, it's mostly the women's and children's magazines I care strongly about.

[aygart]

The majority of the Mishpacha's target audience has a distinct minhag

Source?

[drosenberg88429]

This is the PC free thread?

[drosenberg88429]

ok. an interview with palley just came out. here's some quotable quotes:



https://youtu.be/kPb6CBf8Pc0?t=1482
"They would get the Gedoilim to write letters saying to read only Kosher publications and then they would explain those letters to mean that people shouldn't read Mishpacha" {i.e. the gabbaim would interpret the gedolim to say mishpacha was bad but really the gedolim were behind it}
My comment: He's lying through his teeth. This is always what the apikorism say."The Rabbanim really back us but they are too stupid and are tricked..." Here's a link to just one of the bans: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/113410/maran-rav-elyashiv-calls-for-a-ban-against-mishpacha-magazine.html where R' Elyashiv Zt"L himself signed... There were many more bans from other gedolim as well.

This letter from Rav Elyashiv is regarding the Hebrew Mishpacha newspaper. Different owner, different format, and IDK if they have anything to do with English one besides sharing a name.

[drosenberg88429]

Agreed. Maybe over text it sounds stronger then I intended.

In regards to the issue, prenup shouldn’t be the answer.

Have any gedolim endorsed the Yashar initiative?

[drosenberg88429]

Well times have changed. Women going to the grocery today put on more makeup and dress fancier/ more provocative than any woman ever dressed going to a chasuna 30 years ago.

Lol. Women going to a regular Orthodox wedding not so long ago were wearing short sleeves and weren't covering their hair, and there was mixed seating.

On the underlying principles and concepts of tznius we may be weaker than the previous generation, but on the concrete things there's better adherence. We like romanticizing the past, but it's not true about everything.

אל תאמר מה היה שהימים הראשנים היו טובים מאלה כי לא מחכמה שאלת על זה

[S209]

So what are we supposed to do when it comes to publications? Say “oh, this lady is ugly, let’s put her in,  but this one is too attractive let’s leave her out” so I think a blanket ban, even if not written in shulchan Aruch, is definitely warranted in this day and age.

Well, we can always close their top buttons and make their skin more orange.

[aygart]

Lol. Women going to a regular Orthodox wedding not so long ago were wearing short sleeves and weren't covering their hair, and there was mixed seating.

If you look at BY of BP yearbooks from the 50s and 60s many of the girls are wearing short sleeves.