Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)

[yfr bachur]

The entire premise of your second option is wrong.
It is almost impossible to fathom how your 15 second halacha shiur will convince him to change actions based on lifelong shitos and hanhagos heard from his rebbeim, especially since he's never meet you before! (and you likely are dressed just slightly differently )

If you want to get involved ask you wife to switch with him (at least for takeoff and landing) or help him find someone else to switch with.
Otherwise your mussar shmuze is as effective and wanted as his later mussar shmuz to you about watching the movies on the IFE. 

[aygart]

Otherwise your mussar shmuze is as effective and wanted as the ones posted on DDF

Ftfy

[Moshe Green]

The entire premise of your second option is wrong.
It is almost impossible to fathom how your 15 second halacha shiur will convince him to change actions based on lifelong shitos and hanhagos heard from his rebbeim, especially since he's never meet you before! (and you likely are dressed just slightly differently )

If you want to get involved ask you wife to switch with him (at least for takeoff and landing) or help him find someone else to switch with.
Otherwise your mussar shmuze is as effective and wanted as his later mussar shmuz to you about watching the movies on the IFE. 

Could it be there's multiple reasons to get involved?
1) Like you are saying. To convince him to change his ways. And in such a case, you could be right. He's so stuck in his ways that someone talking to him will not accomplish anyways. But how can one know until actually going over to him and trying to convince him. It could be that he isn't sure if its ok and by someone assuring him that he won't be Chayav Arbah Misos Beis Din by sitting next to her, he will calm down.
2) But maybe there is a second reason to get involved. If this does, Ch"V, turn into a Chillul Hashem, there will be those who saw you try to calm him down and that will mitigate the damage. Just talking to him, even if he doesn't listen helps that.
3) Or perhaps a third reason, to lessen the effect on ourselves. Here in Israel, when there is a car that drives down the block, there are those who yell "SHAAAAABBOS". But there are also those who don't necessarily yell, but say it to themselves. They don't want the sight of Chillul Shabbos to have an effect on themselves. Going over to this fellow will strengthen the resolve on ourselves to not act like him and always be aware that there are those who are watching us and judging.

[yfr bachur]

Could it be there's multiple reasons to get involved?
1) Like you are saying. To convince him to change his ways. And in such a case, you could be right. He's so stuck in his ways that someone talking to him will not accomplish anyways. But how can one know until actually going over to him and trying to convince him. It could be that he isn't sure if its ok and by someone assuring him that he won't be Chayav Arbah Misos Beis Din by sitting next to her, he will calm down.

or maybe the real reason he needs his seat changed is becuase the young girl soiled his whole seat with feces and he doesnt want to embarrass her and you were not Dan lekaf zechus.... It's all a fictional story any way

2) But maybe there is a second reason to get involved. If this does, Ch"V, turn into a Chillul Hashem, there will be those who saw you try to calm him down and that will mitigate the damage. Just talking to him, even if he doesn't listen helps that.

or maybe they will think that you are a party to his actions, especially if they are seated more than a row or two away. You know, jewish people making problems....

3) Or perhaps a third reason, to lessen the effect on ourselves. Here in Israel, when there is a car that drives down the block, there are those who yell "SHAAAAABBOS". But there are also those who don't necessarily yell, but say it to themselves. They don't want the sight of Chillul Shabbos to have an effect on themselves. Going over to this fellow will strengthen the resolve on ourselves to not act like him and always be aware that there are those who are watching us and judging.

So say it to yourself in your seat 

[gozalim]

Could it be there's multiple reasons to get involved?
1) Like you are saying. To convince him to change his ways. And in such a case, you could be right. He's so stuck in his ways that someone talking to him will not accomplish anyways. But how can one know until actually going over to him and trying to convince him. It could be that he isn't sure if its ok and by someone assuring him that he won't be Chayav Arbah Misos Beis Din by sitting next to her, he will calm down.
2) But maybe there is a second reason to get involved. If this does, Ch"V, turn into a Chillul Hashem, there will be those who saw you try to calm him down and that will mitigate the damage. Just talking to him, even if he doesn't listen helps that.
3) Or perhaps a third reason, to lessen the effect on ourselves. Here in Israel, when there is a car that drives down the block, there are those who yell "SHAAAAABBOS". But there are also those who don't necessarily yell, but say it to themselves. They don't want the sight of Chillul Shabbos to have an effect on themselves. Going over to this fellow will strengthen the resolve on ourselves to not act like him and always be aware that there are those who are watching us and judging.

so you're not actually trying to mitigate the situation, you're just trying to magically wash your own hands.
note, preaching isn't the only way to mitigate the situation. you might actually say something effective to him, just it won't be by preaching. it will be by opening your mind, seeing how he thinks, not how you'd like to want him to be thinking, then try and talk to him effectively, rather than just speaking at your image of him

[Yehuda57]

This exact scenario happened to me. My wife went over and was about to offer to switch seats, but then thought better of it. Instead, I went over and said, "shalom aleichem Reb Yid. Would you like to switch seats with my wif...ummm, my wishes chayil? You can sit next to me and she'll sit next to this gir..umm, neshama d'ba"n."
"Ummm, Do I know you?"
"I don't think so, it's just that..."
"Does your wife know this girl?"
"No, It's just that I saw you were getting nervous about sitting next to a female passenger and I ju..."
"Yes I'm nervous about sitting next to her. She's my daughter and it's a long flight. Do you know how tough flying with a kid can be? But if your wife wants to take care of her and let me sleep, THANK YOU!"
And then as he started gathering his things he said, "Her name is Feigy and she's allergic to peanuts."

[Moshe Green]

so you're not actually trying to mitigate the situation, you're just trying to magically wash your own hands.
note, preaching isn't the only way to mitigate the situation. you might actually say something effective to him, just it won't be by preaching. it will be by opening your mind, seeing how he thinks, not how you'd like to want him to be thinking, then try and talk to him effectively, rather than just speaking at your image of him

Exactly.
So what would you do in such a situation?
What would be an effective way of changing the situation for the better?
How does someone "open ones mind to see how this fellow thinks"?

[yfr bachur]

Exactly.
So what would you do in such a situation?
What would be an effective way of changing the situation for the better?

You try to understand what and why he thinks the way he does... and then try to help him within his current understanding...

How does someone "open ones mind to see how this fellow thinks"?

You've been in israel too long to understand 
It's a machala here to try to force people from other backgrounds and shitos to come round to your understanding of the situation by repeating your view louder and louder...
The way is to try to understand why the other person thinks what he does, (possibly even asking him - Gasp!) and then helping him where is.

Try by asking the fellow what the problem is.
Then empathise that, yes, it's takeh an Issue.
Then ask so what would good solution?
offer to help him solve the problem...

[mevinyavin]

You've been in israel too long to understand 

And you apparently haven't.

[Moshe Green]

You try to understand what and why he thinks the way he does... and then try to help him within his current understanding...

The way is to try to understand why the other person thinks what he does, (possibly even asking him - Gasp!) and then helping him where is.

Try by asking the fellow what the problem is.
Then empathise that, yes, it's takeh an Issue.
Then ask so what would good solution?
offer to help him solve the problem...

DING DING DING
We have a winner!

O.k., but what about the next part.
2: Your wife thinks for a second. "Yeah, i guess so. I mean, if you can can prevent another story going out in a nice way, why not?"
You go over to the fellow.
"Hey Reb Yid" You patiently ask. "What's wrong?."
"You don't see?", he asks with fire in his eyes, "They put me purposefully next to a girl when i purposefully asked them ahead of time for them not to!".
"Wow! That's terrible", you say, sounding as empathetic as possible. "This is really not good. What do you think we should do? Maybe i can help."
"Help me get the flight attendant's attention so we can get him to switch me", he says.
"Uh, he looks kinda busy, maybe we can just wait til after takeoff to sort this out?", you stammer.
He looks at you with fire in his eyes. "Listen. If your not willing to help then just mind your own business!"

What now?

[yfr bachur]

@Moshe Green  do you want to tell us what your point is, or is this a game for you?

[gozalim]

DING DING DING
We have a winner!

O.k., but what about the next part.
2: Your wife thinks for a second. "Yeah, i guess so. I mean, if you can can prevent another story going out in a nice way, why not?"
You go over to the fellow.
"Hey Reb Yid" You patiently ask. "What's wrong?."
"You don't see?", he asks with fire in his eyes, "They put me purposefully next to a girl when i purposefully asked them ahead of time for them not to!".
"Wow! That's terrible", you say, sounding as empathetic as possible. "This is really not good. What do you think we should do? Maybe i can help."
"Help me get the flight attendant's attention so we can get him to switch me", he says.
"Uh, he looks kinda busy, maybe we can just wait til after takeoff to sort this out?", you stammer.
He looks at you with fire in his eyes. "Listen. If your not willing to help then just mind your own business!"

What now?

very good. you put yourself in his shoes, and thought about what he might be willing to hear. great start!

[Yehuda57]

Each hypothetical makes the dude crazier and crazier. My earlier post wasn't just a joke, it was about how silly making such assumptions is. Why are people fiery-eyed maniacs in this thread and completely uncaring secular Jews in other threads? In every thread that's the common theme, anyone who is doing what I do is Torah-True™­­, anyone else is either not religious or a fanatic.

Forget the hypotheticals:
A friend of mine was on a JFK-TLV flight where a seating fiasco was brewing and the flight attendant was starting to get mad. He quietly said to her, "You can go take care of other things you need to, I'll take care of this." He calmly spoke to a couple of passengers, they sorted it out between themselves, and when the flight attendant returned 3 minutes later, everyone was seated as if nothing had happened.

He didn't try as hard as he could to "sound empathetic", he WAS empathetic. He didn't tell the people their issue wasn't real, or that it wasn't serious enough to be fixed before take-off. They weren't fiery eyed meshugoim, they didn't want to sit next to women. The women were not hateful anti Chareidi bigots, they didn't want to give up their seat location/companion. With a little non-combative communication, they were able to find seats everyone was happy with.

Maybe we should stop trying to imagine how we would deal with a hypothetical meshugene and worry about how we deal with and speak about the people we actually do interact with.

[Moshe Green]

Each hypothetical makes the dude crazier and crazier. My earlier post wasn't just a joke, it was about how silly making such assumptions is. Why are people fiery-eyed maniacs in this thread and completely uncaring secular Jews in other threads? In every thread that's the common theme, anyone who is doing what I do is Torah-True™­­, anyone else is either not religious or a fanatic.

Forget the hypotheticals:
A friend of mine was on a JFK-TLV flight where a seating fiasco was brewing and the flight attendant was starting to get mad. He quietly said to her, "You can go take care of other things you need to, I'll take care of this." He calmly spoke to a couple of passengers, they sorted it out between themselves, and when the flight attendant returned 3 minutes later, everyone was seated as if nothing had happened.

He didn't try as hard as he could to "sound empathetic", he WAS empathetic. He didn't tell the people their issue wasn't real, or that it wasn't serious enough to be fixed before take-off. They weren't fiery eyed meshugoim, they didn't want to sit next to women. The women were not hateful anti Chareidi bigots, they didn't want to give up their seat location/companion. With a little non-combative communication, they were able to find seats everyone was happy with.

Maybe we should stop trying to imagine how we would deal with a hypothetical meshugene and worry about how we deal with and speak about the people we actually do interact with.

I don't think these are hypothetical situations. They are happening every moment as we speak and in fact:
You yourself actually sound like that fiery-eyed maniac  
Look at your post and tell me you don't sound like it. You speak in hyperbole and exaggeration. You constantly steamroll over anything i say because it doesn't fit in with your worldview. Instead of being terrified to sit next to a girl you're terrified to see an opinion out there that makes you feel uncomfortable.
I happen to be open to debating anything you want. But stop your constant bashing and hate.
Looking foward to you joining the conversation when your ready to post like a mentsch and not like a grintch.

[Moshe Green]

@Moshe Green  do you want to tell us what your point is, or is this a game for you?

Um. I asked 2 questions and you answered one very nicely. So i'm asking about the second one.
This is the Torah & Hashkafa Questions thread. That's what you do in this thread.
It's not so complicated or deep.

[JMHO]

I don't think these are hypothetical situations. They are happening every moment as we speak and in fact:
You yourself actually sound like that fiery-eyed maniac  
Look at your post and tell me you don't sound like it. You speak in hyperbole and exaggeration. You constantly steamroll over anything i say because it doesn't fit in with your worldview. Instead of being terrified to sit next to a girl you're terrified to see an opinion out there that makes you feel uncomfortable.
I happen to be open to debating anything you want. But stop your constant bashing and hate.
Looking foward to you joining the conversation when your ready to post like a mentsch and not like a grintch.

Please don't bully. Thank you

[Yehuda57]

I strive to comment on the contents of the posts and not speak of members personally. If I fell short of that, I apologize, and please point it out to me so I can delete it or request a mod to do so.

[imayid2]

Is there such a thing at all as a fanatic, or no matter the subject at hand one should respect the other view as view as legitimate?

For example should one work to respect neturai karta crazies who go visit terrorists, or is it ok to perceive them as nuts?

Everyone may have different lines drawn on what they respect even if it isn't something they'd agree with, and where it crosses the line to fanatism. In this scenario given which was about making a raucous about sitting next to a four year old girl, it's reasonable to assume most would view it as fanatical. As to how common it is I have my doubts.

[yesitsme]

since this an airline thread I'll stick it in

he's sefardi, remember? no cholent, he would eat chamin but doesn't want to leave carbon monoxide

[Definitions]

Regarding the concept of davening at a kever. The first thing that comes to mind is the medrash about why kever rochel is on the road.

Why is it better at a kever as opposed to anywhere else?