Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)

[yungermanchik]

Regarding the concept of davening at a kever. The first thing that comes to mind is the medrash about why kever rochel is on the road.

Why is it better at a kever as opposed to anywhere else?

You invoke the z'chus of the niftar in a stronger way. Similar to the way certain tfillos are said by the bimah to invoke the zchus hatorah.

[drosenberg88429]

Regarding the concept of davening at a kever. The first thing that comes to mind is the medrash about why kever rochel is on the road.

Why is it better at a kever as opposed to anywhere else?

4 possibilities

A) A graveyard puts one in a serious and somber frame of mind, and reminds one of the fleeting nature of life, which is conducive to meaningful prayer with proper concentration

B) The prayers are quicker accepted when you pray that you be granted a request in the merit of the righteous person, and the graveside helps you focus on that

C) The resting place of a righteous person is a holy place, which is auspicious for ones prayers being accepted

D) The righteous person intercedes on the behalf and at the request of the petitioner to HKBH


There are various different opinions and customs regarding this, with some holding the last opinion and speaking to the dead to act as an intermediary to be borderline heresy. The most important thing is not to ask the dead to do something for you as if they have independent power or capabilities.

(Btw, the other earliest source for davening by kevarim would be Kalev ben Yefuneh going to daven by Kivrei Avos in Chevron when the meraglim went on their journey. It is possible that the Avos, which would include Kever Rochel, like you mentioned, are an exception, and do act as advocates.)

[Definitions]

You invoke the z'chus of the niftar in a stronger way. Similar to the way certain tfillos are said by the bimah to invoke the zchus hatorah.

Ok but why

[Definitions]

4 possibilities

A) A graveyard puts one in a serious and somber frame of mind, and reminds one of the fleeting nature of life, which is conducive to meaningful prayer with proper concentration

B) The prayers are quicker accepted when you pray that you be granted a request in the merit of the righteous person, and the graveside helps you focus on that

C) The resting place of a righteous person is a holy place, which is auspicious for ones prayers being accepted

D) The righteous person intercedes on the behalf and at the request of the petitioner to HKBH


There are various different opinions and customs regarding this, with some holding the last opinion and speaking to the dead to act as an intermediary to be borderline heresy. The most important thing is not to ask the dead to do something for you as if they have independent power or capabilities.

(Btw, the other earliest source for davening by kevarim would be Kalev ben Yefuneh going to daven by Kivrei Avos in Chevron when the meraglim went on their journey. It is possible that the Avos, which would include Kever Rochel, like you mentioned, are an exception, and do act as advocates.)

A - fine but that doesn't seem to be the reason why people do it today. If it was then any cemetery would do
B- similar to A but seems like you're explaining how it works
C - why
D - this is B

[drosenberg88429]

A - fine but that doesn't seem to be the reason why people do it today. If it was then any cemetery would do
B- similar to A but seems like you're explaining how it works
C - why
D - this is B

I don't get what you're saying in paranthesis and isn't kever rochel before?

A) Yeah, you're 100% right about that, that any cemetery will do for that purpose. (There's a similar discussion regarding the custom to visit graveyard on fast days and before Rosh Hashanah - if it's just to remind us about death and inspire us to repent, then any graveyard will do. However, the gemara (Taanis 16a) cites another option that they used to ask the dead to plead for mercy on their behalf. The gemara specifically mentions the point which you mention, that the difference would be if it can be any graveyard.)

B) I think there's a difference between A and B. A is reminding and bringing home to the one praying the reality of death. It doesn't really have much to do with the particular person buried there. B is helping the one praying focus on the righteous person buried there to invoke his merit.

C) There are sources that the Shechinah is present by the resting place of a tzaddik, and it's a holy place.


D) There can be a big difference between B and D, according to some opinions. B is speaking to Hashem and making request/invoking merit of tzaddik. D is speaking to tzaddik to petition Hashem on your behalf. Fine line, but can be very different.


Kalev is alluded to a bit more explicitly in passuk, but you're 100% right that they're both in medrash/gemara (Gemara about Kalev is Sotah 34b). Yes, passuk regarding Rochel's burial is earlier.

[Definitions]

Ok I see the two ways you're differentiating between b and d. Why does it have to be by the kever? If it's the person going to hashem does the meis "hear" only when it's around the kever?
If it's the other way around then you can say C.

[Definitions]

Ok I see the two ways you're differentiating between b and d. Why does it have to be by the kever? If it's the person going to hashem does the meis "hear" only when it's around the kever?
If it's the other way around then you can say C.

If it's asking the meis to ask hashem. I guess a better question would be why does the meis "hear/know" anything about what's going on in this world. They did or didn't do their job. Now it's over for them why are they still involved in anything.

[drosenberg88429]

Ok I see the two ways you're differentiating between b and d. Why does it have to be by the kever? If it's the person going to hashem does the meis "hear" only when it's around the kever?
If it's the other way around then you can say C.

Either the meis "hears" better (see Gemara Brachos 19A - fascinating gemara), or is more inclined to help you when you make an effort to go visit them (they seem to appreciate the visits and it brings them pleasure - no, I don't know what that means). They probably gain more from you doing a mitzvah or learning Torah in their zechus than visiting their grave.

B wouldn't have to be specifically by their kever. It just makes it more real and tangible (and there are sources to simanom and tangibility being auspicious for shaping reality and being a source of remembrance to HKBH to invoke merit, much like blowing a ram's horn in merit of akeida and other things we do), like @yungermanchik said regarding about tefillos we say by bimah bezchus hatorah.

[drosenberg88429]

If it's asking the meis to ask hashem. I guess a better question would be why does the meis "hear/know" anything about what's going on in this world. They did or didn't do their job. Now it's over for them why are they still involved in anything.

Excellent excellent questions, and really cutting to the heart of a pretty involved subject. The gemara in brachos 18b-19a has a long discussion about whether the meisim hear, know, or care what's going on over here. Pretty esoteric gemara. The gemara in Taanis 16a does mention asking the meisim to use their connections to help us (according to one opinion). Way beyond my pay grade (especially after midnight), and very extensive topic. Maybe someone else can help with some good sources and links that provide a good overview.

[Pony]

משנה ברורה סימן תקפא ס״ק כז

דביה"ק הוא מקום מנוחת הצדיקים והתפלה נתקבלה שם יותר אך אל ישים מגמתו נגד המתים אך יבקש מהש"י שיתן עליו רחמים בזכות הצדיקים שוכני עפר

[dm123]

שו״ת מנחת אלעזר חלק א׳ סימן ס״ח

שאין חשש איסור… אדרבא מצוה איכא

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14912&st=&pgnum=172

Basically it’s a AYLOR there are various opinions.

[drosenberg88429]

משנה ברורה סימן תקפא ס״ק כז

דביה"ק הוא מקום מנוחת הצדיקים והתפלה נתקבלה שם יותר אך אל ישים מגמתו נגד המתים אך יבקש מהש"י שיתן עליו רחמים בזכות הצדיקים שוכני עפר

👍
Thanks for quoting.
The Mishnah Berurah accentuates avoiding D above. The Chofetz Chaim really sticks with B and C.

It should be noted that davening, saying tehillim, saying kaddish, learning, and doing mitzvos by a kever and in graveyard can be fairly problematic too (as it in a way mocks the meisim and rubs in their faces that they can no longer do this) and is a discussion and subject of its own.

[yerushabubby]

I can't speak for everyone, but when I am at a kever that I feel a connection to (a relative or a tzaddik) I find that my tefillos are more emotional - less restrained by what others may think.

[zh cohen]

Regarding the concept of davening at a kever. The first thing that comes to mind is the medrash about why kever rochel is on the road.

Why is it better at a kever as opposed to anywhere else?

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5557360/jewish/Why-the-Notes-at-the-Kotel-and-Gravesites.htm

[mevinyavin]

I remember seeing a pamphlet, years ago (at least 12), regarding someone who had davened at the kosel for a yeshua (marriage, I think) for a long time. His friend tried convincing him to go to Rashbi, but he wasn't interested, saying the kosel is surely the best place to daven. After quite some time, he gave in, and went to daven by Rashbi. He immediately had a yeshua.
The paper concluded (in Ivrit, but I don't remember the words), "We see that even when Hashem Himself doesn't give a yeshua, Rashbi has the power to give yeshuos!"
It was ernst, well, kefira.
The pitfalls need to be known. You cannot forget the True Source when you are involved with what are essentially segulos.

[imayid2]

[aygart]

The title and the content don't match

[imayid2]

The title and the content don't match

For the next mahdura which is being worked on and whom the nut jobs have been fighting

[aygart]

For the next mahdura which is being worked on and whom the nut jobs have been fighting

It remains

The title and the content don't match

[imayid2]

In other news, Dialogue put out their next edition, included is the next step of R. Grossmans response to Prof Mark Shapiro, oh boy this is bound to be fun.

And another withering attack on Shapiro. Very interesting
https://irrationalistmodoxism.substack.com/p/on-knowing-how-to-learn-part-ii