Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)

[jew]

I remember seeing a pamphlet, years ago (at least 12), regarding someone who had davened at the kosel for a yeshua (marriage, I think) for a long time. His friend tried convincing him to go to Rashbi, but he wasn't interested, saying the kosel is surely the best place to daven. After quite some time, he gave in, and went to daven by Rashbi. He immediately had a yeshua.
The paper concluded (in Ivrit, but I don't remember the words), "We see that even when Hashem Himself doesn't give a yeshua, Rashbi has the power to give yeshuos!"
It was ernst, well, kefira.
The pitfalls need to be known. You cannot forget the True Source when you are involved with what are essentially segulos.

צדיק גוזר והקב''ה מקיים.

Why is Rashbi a "segula"?

[jew]

נצחוני בני נצחוני

[mevinyavin]

נצחוני בני נצחוני

There is a time-honored minhag going at least back to Kalev (if not the medrash about Rochel Imeinu's kever) to daven AT kivrei tzadikim. There is a machlokes if asking the tzadik for help is permitted, but let us say (for argument's sake) that you go with those who permit it.
The problem here is not that he left the kosel and went to Rashbi. The problem is "even when Hashem Himself doesn't give a yeshua, Rashbi has the power." If you don't think that is kefira, I can't help you.

[dm123]

There is a time-honored minhag going at least back to Kalev (if not the medrash about Rochel Imeinu's kever) to daven AT kivrei tzadikim.

How are you reading the gemara? It (to me) seems pretty clear Kalev is asking the Avos for help.

אָמַר רָבָא מְלַמֵּד שֶׁפֵּירַשׁ כָּלֵב מֵעֲצַת מְרַגְּלִים וְהָלַךְ וְנִשְׁתַּטַּח עַל קִבְרֵי אָבוֹת אָמַר לָהֶן אֲבוֹתַי בִּקְּשׁוּ עָלַי רַחֲמִים שֶׁאֶנָּצֵל מֵעֲצַת מְרַגְּלִים

Rava says: This teaches that Caleb separated himself from the counsel of the other spies and went and prostrated himself on the graves of the forefathers in Hebron. He said to them: My forefathers, pray for mercy for me so that I will be saved from the counsel of the spies.

There is a machlokes if asking the tzadik for help is permitted, but let us say (for argument's sake) that you go with those who permit it.

Yes, as you, I, and others mentioned, it's an old machlokes, but see the tshuva I referenced above that not only is it permitted, but he writes "אדרבא, מצוה איכא"
שו״ת מנחת אלעזר חלק א׳ סימן ס״ח
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14912&st=&pgnum=172

The problem is "even when Hashem Himself doesn't give a yeshua, Rashbi has the power." If you don't think that is kefira, I can't help you.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I don't think anyone is forgetting the True Source. Sometimes to get a "favorable" outcome from the True Source different methods may need to be employed, such as tshuva/tzedaka/tfila/tfilas tzaddikim etc.



ETA: Gemara with Kalev is סוטה ל״ד ב

[imayid2]

How are you reading the gemara?

Some are gores differently see ספר המאורות סוף מסכת ברכות

[dm123]

Some are gores differently see ספר המאורות סוף מסכת ברכות

Interesting thank you. Would you happen to have a link or image?

[imayid2]

Interesting thank you. Would you happen to have a link or image?

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=16100&st=&pgnum=164

[imayid2]

Yes, as you, I, and others mentioned, it's an old machlokes, but see the tshuva I referenced above that not only is it permitted, but he writes "אדרבא, מצוה איכא"
שו״ת מנחת אלעזר חלק א׳ סימן ס״ח
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14912&st=&pgnum=172

אלא ודאי דלא ישום מגמתו שהמת יושיעו באיזה כח דזהו ודאי עון פלילי

The paper concluded (in Ivrit, but I don't remember the words), "We see that even when Hashem Himself doesn't give a yeshua, Rashbi has the power to give yeshuos!"

If you don't think that is kefira, I can't help you.

[dm123]

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I don't think anyone is forgetting the True Source. Sometimes to get a "favorable" outcome from the True Source different methods may need to be employed, such as tshuva/tzedaka/tfila/tfilas tzaddikim etc.

I would imagine that the people who published the paper would be horrified at what is being read into it by some here.

[bochur22]

I would imagine that the people who published the paper would be horrified at what is being read into it by some here.

Oy. R' Shimon save us all.

[dm123]

Oy. R' Shimon save us all.

Sorry. I forgot R' Chaim has the trademark on salvation. 

“BSD Cheshvan 5782

I ask everyone to partner with me to save the life of my friend, a huge talmid chacham...His situation has touched my heart and is close to being one of pikuach nefesh. All those who help, I will remember them for good. They will merit to raise their children to Torah and to the chuppah, and no sickness or harm should befall upon their families. They will be blessed with children, life and sustenance.

Chaim Kanievsky”

https://thechesedfund.com/vaadharabanimprojects/coin?aff=43

[bochur22]

Sorry. I forgot R' Chaim has the trademark on salvation.  ::)https://thechesedfund.com/vaadharabanimprojects/coin?aff=43

They're coming up with new titles every day here. R' Michel Feinstein's son (R' Dovid) is now the "Amud Hatoirah".
Who knew? (Disclaimer: I in no way C"V mean to make fun of Gedoilim or Rabbonim, just to point out some of the excesses of the commercialization of Gedoilim for various purposes)

[imayid2]

Sorry. I forgot R' Chaim has the trademark on salvation.  ::)https://thechesedfund.com/vaadharabanimprojects/coin?aff=43

All those who help, I will remember them for good.

Bad translation. The original says אכיר להם טובה

[yelped]

How are you reading the gemara? It (to me) seems pretty clear Kalev is asking the Avos for help. Yes, as you, I, and others mentioned, it's an old machlokes, but see the tshuva I referenced above that not only is it permitted, but he writes "אדרבא, מצוה איכא"
שו״ת מנחת אלעזר חלק א׳ סימן ס״ח
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14912&st=&pgnum=172

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I don't think anyone is forgetting the True Source. Sometimes to get a "favorable" outcome from the True Source different methods may need to be employed, such as tshuva/tzedaka/tfila/tfilas tzaddikim etc.



ETA: Gemara with Kalev is סוטה ל״ד ב

Asking the Avos to intercede is not the same as saying that the Avos have the power to save him. Technically, through the mechanics of צדיק גוזר, והקב"ה מקיים the tzaddik has a Koach, but ultimately, it is all Hashem, and if that is not understood, then, OUCH!

[dm123]

Bad translation. The original says אכיר להם טובה

So as it stands the letter as written on chessedfund is kefira?

[dm123]

Asking the Avos to intercede is not the same as saying that the Avos have the power to save him. Technically, through the mechanics of צדיק גוזר, והקב"ה מקיים the tzaddik has a Koach, but ultimately, it is all Hashem, and if that is not understood, then, OUCH!

That's what I said at the end.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I don't think anyone is forgetting the True Source.

[yelped]

That's what I said at the end.

Hopefully. But that's not what he said.

[imayid2]

So as it stands the letter as written on chessedfund is kefira?

“to remember them for good” is a bit ambiguous. Could technically mean to daven for them for good. Definitely dangerously close

[dm123]

Hopefully. But that's not what he said.

Who's he?

[yelped]

Who's he?

I remember seeing a pamphlet, years ago (at least 12), regarding someone who had davened at the kosel for a yeshua (marriage, I think) for a long time. His friend tried convincing him to go to Rashbi, but he wasn't interested, saying the kosel is surely the best place to daven. After quite some time, he gave in, and went to daven by Rashbi. He immediately had a yeshua.
The paper concluded (in Ivrit, but I don't remember the words), "We see that even when Hashem Himself doesn't give a yeshua, Rashbi has the power to give yeshuos!"
It was ernst, well, kefira.
The pitfalls need to be known. You cannot forget the True Source when you are involved with what are essentially segulos.