Author Topic: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)  (Read 24082 times)

Offline chevron

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #135 on: February 25, 2018, 09:39:01 PM »
See radak "rachok meod" far fetched.

He must be a heretic like me

Offline Eliyohu

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #136 on: February 25, 2018, 09:42:18 PM »


Very good point, I asked someone fluent in the rambam and he doesn't recall.. Maybe the ou messed up? But per @cmey it's in yerushalmi.

My question is then how literal is this?  Though Pinchas lived very long. Maybe chagai was a spirit ?

iI hhave no issue accepting someone lived 600 yyears as unnatural as that is. I just have a hard time understanding a navi living that long and disappearing from public life and history. Why would he give him his leadership role?

Can it be as simple as the same reason that the nevua that was transmitted is a tiny fraction of what there was. And the only stuff written are things that are nogeia L'doros..

Offline chevron

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #137 on: February 25, 2018, 10:02:22 PM »

Can it be as simple as the same reason that the nevua that was transmitted is a tiny fraction of what there was. And the only stuff written are things that are nogeia L'doros..

I've been thinking and discussing that too...becsuse there were hundreds of true neviim that aren't in the canon.

Ovadiya saved 100 prophets alone.

Still, I'm not saying its not true. I said it doesn't make sense.

Maybe because I live in 2018 where we micro focus on every aged rebbe and rav but I can't believe that.. They visited aged taanaim and amoraim etc.
.
i just don't understand how chagai who was a chain in the mesorah or Mordecai could exist for hundreds of years and this all not recorded nor were they contributing Torah etc?

Offline Eliyohu

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #138 on: February 25, 2018, 10:09:00 PM »
I've been thinking and discussing that too...becsuse there were hundreds of true neviim that aren't in the canon.

Ovadiya saved 100 prophets alone.

Still, I'm not saying its not true. I said it doesn't make sense.

Maybe because I live in 2018 where we micro focus on every aged rebbe and rav but I can't believe that.. They visited aged taanaim and amoraim etc.
.
i just don't understand how chagai who was a chain in the mesorah or Mordecai could exist for hundreds of years and this all not recorded nor were they contributing Torah etc?
You're issue in a nutshell is you can't fathom that there wasn't social media and paparazzi around every aged Rabbi a there is today and documenting their lives? We see very clearly only things that were important L'doros were written, even megillas Esther wasn't so simple, who knows if we'd have ever heard of the story..  had Esther not gotten her way...

Offline cmey

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #139 on: February 25, 2018, 10:18:22 PM »
Very good point, I asked someone fluent in the rambam and he doesn't recall.. Maybe the ou messed up? But per @cmey it's in yerushalmi.

My question is then how literal is this?  Though Pinchas lived very long. Maybe chagai was a spirit ?

iI hhave no issue accepting someone lived 600 yyears as unnatural as that is. I just have a hard time understanding a navi living that long and disappearing from public life and history. Why would he give him hhis leadership role?

Thatís because itís a misquote. The yerushalmi and bavli are merely brought as a basis by some to say that Rabbi Dosa and Chaggai met each other. The Rambam (its in the hakdama miseder zeraim haperek hariviíi) learns that Rav Dosa was in the generation of Shimon Hatzadik (and therefore chaggai) and it was Rav Dosa who lived until the time of Rabbi Akiva...

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #140 on: February 25, 2018, 10:25:18 PM »
You're issue in a nutshell is you can't fathom that there wasn't social media and paparazzi around every aged Rabbi a there is today and documenting their lives? We see very clearly only things that were important L'doros were written, even megillas Esther wasn't so simple, who knows if we'd have ever heard of the story..  had Esther not gotten her way...

I have nachman cohen's "esther's plea"

But there were midrash and talmdic instances where they visited old sages to ask questions ?

The case of pinchas in his old age is different

Offline chevron

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #141 on: February 25, 2018, 10:26:41 PM »
Thatís because itís a misquote. The yerushalmi and bavli are merely brought as a basis by some to say that Rabbi Dosa and Chaggai met each other. The Rambam (its in the hakdama miseder zeraim haperek hariviíi) learns that Rav Dosa was in the generation of Shimon Hatzadik (and therefore chaggai) and it was Rav Dosa who lived until the time of Rabbi Akiva...

Thank you, because I asked and no one knew where the rambam said it.


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #142 on: February 25, 2018, 10:30:03 PM »
Thatís because itís a misquote. The yerushalmi and bavli are merely brought as a basis by some to say that Rabbi Dosa and Chaggai met each other. The Rambam (its in the hakdama miseder zeraim haperek hariviíi) learns that Rav Dosa was in the generation of Shimon Hatzadik (and therefore chaggai) and it was Rav Dosa who lived until the time of Rabbi Akiva...
Not really following but it sounds like a big nothing..

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #143 on: February 25, 2018, 10:30:29 PM »
Did Ruth live 300+ years? (see tal. baba batra 91b - she was alive after Abshalom becomes king)...?

שנאמר (מלכים א ב, יט) וישם כסא לאם המלך וא"ר אלעזר לאמה של מלכות

רשב"ם - זו רות המואביה - שנקראת על שבט יהודה כלומר בנים שיצאו ממנה.
כלומר???

Offline chevron

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #144 on: February 25, 2018, 10:35:02 PM »
Not really following but it sounds like a big nothing..

Which? my whole thread ? sure in light of @cmey  yes.

From the get go I asked Rabbi smith and he said hes not seen it in the rambam and it would be a OU typo.

Lots of things dont "make sense"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_years_(Jewish_calendar)

Rabbi Geizinsky in NMB has a book on it I was reading.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 10:38:17 PM by chevron »

Offline Eliyohu

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #145 on: February 25, 2018, 10:49:42 PM »



But there were midrash and talmdic instances where they visited old sages to ask questions ?


Is that a question or statement? If it's a statement any specific sources?..

There are chassidic sounding stories of people who met serach bas Asher.. but I'm not familiar with anyone today who's claimed to have met her...

even in midrashic and talmudic sources there are some taanaim and amoraim only mentioned a second single time.. it seems that censorship of what should be written and passed down is pretty severe and no more perplexing then that of chaggai and to me rather simple that they're teachings and rulings were for that time and that time only. Mordecai whom you mentioned, even during his "active years" that are recorded there isn't much that we actually know.. can u name a single teaching from him..

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #146 on: February 26, 2018, 10:16:01 AM »
Why was achiya hashiloni prophecies not add to neviim ? Was it lost already?

Offline aygart

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Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
« Reply #147 on: February 26, 2018, 10:36:51 AM »
Why was achiya hashiloni prophecies not add to neviim ? Was it lost already?
Only ones which were to teach fire all of the generations were written.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline ExGingi

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How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
« Reply #148 on: February 26, 2018, 11:10:51 AM »
Which? my whole thread ? sure in light of @cmey  yes.

From the get go I asked Rabbi smith and he said hes not seen it in the rambam and it would be a OU typo.

Lots of things dont "make sense"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_years_(Jewish_calendar)

Rabbi Geizinsky in NMB has a book on it I was reading.
So here we have it, an entire thread full of criticism, perceived attacks, etc. which actually boiled down to a simple question and answer. A lot could have been avoided if 1. The question would have been better articulated, and 2. The title would have been a little better thought through.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chevron

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Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
« Reply #149 on: February 26, 2018, 11:29:00 AM »
So here we have it, an entire thread full of criticism, perceived attacks, etc. which actually boiled down to a simple question and answer. A lot could have been avoided if 1. The question would have been better articulated, and 2. The title would have been a little better thought through.

But it wasn't and I apologize. But the constant attacks on me are as stupid. I just have a lot of questions and maybe lots of uncomfortable ideas but I also have rabbinic guidance in my life.. (renowned rabbanim for that matter)  to say that I'm a heretic because I ask questions is quite silly.

Any ways, this should have been in general discussion in appropriate thread.. Apologies. Grateful to @cmey

Looked up the chazon ish. Though I'll stick with the rambams comments on achiya hashiloni as the one that lived very long.

Does it mean, the others didn't?  No.. Do I find it hard to believe?  I'll just echo the radak " ze rachok meod" maybe they did.. But apparently it's not relevant unless they hide some missing Torah we want to uncover