Author Topic: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)  (Read 154815 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #660 on: November 21, 2022, 09:10:02 PM »
I wonder how many signatories bothered to read the defense and clarification given by leshem.
https://tora-forum.co.il/viewtopic.php?t=24000
I wonder if any did.
I wonder how many know about the Israeli politics involved here.

Online EliJelly

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #661 on: November 21, 2022, 09:11:02 PM »
I strongly disagree with the sentiments being spewed here. You can hate the messenger, and you may question the need to "burn" the book, but the message is still true.

I've heard from one of the signatories that it's a bad sefer and that nobody should learn it. (Didn't hear "burn" from his mouth but didn't ask about it.) This signer, a respected rosh yeshiva, clearly saw the book and clearly stood behind his stance that the book is terrible and should not be learned.

I have no idea who is behind the campaign, or how many crazy things he's done, but please don't normalize the book just because they guy might be a nut. The sefer should not be learned. (The author may be a great person who meant well. But the final product is not according to the mesorah we have, and can be detrimental to our hashkafah.)

Your opinion can be very true but there is no bigger spoiler of a worthy מערכה or cause than when lunatics and extremists are taking the lead. 

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #662 on: November 21, 2022, 10:11:19 PM »
I strongly disagree with the sentiments being spewed here. You can hate the messenger, and you may question the need to "burn" the book, but the message is still true.

I've heard from one of the signatories that it's a bad sefer and that nobody should learn it. (Didn't hear "burn" from his mouth but didn't ask about it.) This signer, a respected rosh yeshiva, clearly saw the book and clearly stood behind his stance that the book is terrible and should not be learned.

I have no idea who is behind the campaign, or how many crazy things he's done, but please don't normalize the book just because they guy might be a nut. The sefer should not be learned. (The author may be a great person who meant well. But the final product is not according to the mesorah we have, and can be detrimental to our hashkafah.)
The sentiments here are mostly about the advertisement in the yated which compared the authors to Moses Mendelssohn, said it should be burned and that the publisher and authors are evil.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #663 on: November 21, 2022, 10:38:09 PM »
there is no bigger spoiler of a worthy מערכה or cause than when lunatics and extremists are taking the lead.
+1
There are נקודות to stress about this that would appeal to a much wider variety of Rabbanim, and resonate with much more people, if people like the above ignominious lunatic (who incidentally is clearly an עם הארץ and apparently a bit illiterate - his very first accusation about the Chumash giving an explanation of בכורה as שררה is stated by רבינו בחיי and other Rishonim, and duly noted as a source by the Chumash. The other examples are no better) weren’t messing it up by blowing it out of proportion.
Again, compare to the tone of the Eida.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #664 on: November 21, 2022, 10:40:32 PM »
+1
There are נקודות to stress about this that would appeal to a much wider variety of Rabbanim, and resonate with much more people, if people like the above ignominious lunatic (who incidentally is clearly an עם הארץ and apparently a bit illiterate - his very first accusation about the Chumash giving an explanation of בכורה as שררה is stated by רבינו בחיי and other Rishonim, and duly noted as a source by the Chumash. The other examples are no better) weren’t messing it up by blowing it out of proportion.
Again, compare to the tone of the Eida.
The issue is not that it's not quoting Rishonim. The issue is that our mesorah mandates that Rashi's pshat is the simple pshat, and anything else comes after. You can't print a pirush whose whole premise is to be simpler than Rashi.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #665 on: November 21, 2022, 10:45:54 PM »
The issue is not that it's not quoting Rishonim. The issue is that our mesorah mandates that Rashi's pshat is the simple pshat, and anything else comes after. You can't print a pirush whose whole premise is to be simpler than Rashi.
*our* mesorah is subjective.
For example, when Reb Shloma Dubnov did a similar style pirush by being melaket those other types of Rishonim, he received glowing approbations from the נודע ביהודה Rav Chaim Volozhiner, Rav Zalman Volozhiner and a whole lot more.

Apparently they didn’t have this mesorah.

This is an old fight. There are different approaches.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #666 on: November 21, 2022, 10:48:23 PM »
The Rashbam in the beginning of וישב famously outlines his disagreement with Rashi, he even says Rashi agreed with him.

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #667 on: November 21, 2022, 10:52:28 PM »
*our* mesorah is subjective.
For example, when Reb Shloma Dubnov did a similar style pirush by being melaket those other types of Rishonim, he received glowing approbations from the נודע ביהודה Rav Chaim Volozhiner, Rav Zalman Volozhiner and a whole lot more.

Apparently they didn’t have this mesorah.

This is an old fight. There are different approaches.
But when almost every one of the contemporary roshei yeshiva I respect sign saying like one side, I follow that approach, and so should everyone else who follows them.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #668 on: November 21, 2022, 11:00:21 PM »
But when almost every one of the contemporary roshei yeshiva I respect sign saying like one side, I follow that approach, and so should everyone else who follows them.
There are some people conspicuously absent from this kol koreh. Odds are they probably don’t agree with much of it, or the way it’s being done.
It’s ok to follow a certain approach. It’s when that approach viciously tries to completely delegitimize another approach that it gets disconcerting.

Offline jye

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #669 on: November 21, 2022, 11:18:57 PM »
I strongly disagree with the sentiments being spewed here. You can hate the messenger, and you may question the need to "burn" the book, but the message is still true.

I've heard from one of the signatories that it's a bad sefer and that nobody should learn it. (Didn't hear "burn" from his mouth but didn't ask about it.) This signer, a respected rosh yeshiva, clearly saw the book and clearly stood behind his stance that the book is terrible and should not be learned.

I have no idea who is behind the campaign, or how many crazy things he's done, but please don't normalize the book just because they guy might be a nut. The sefer should not be learned. (The author may be a great person who meant well. But the final product is not according to the mesorah we have, and can be detrimental to our hashkafah.)

There is indeed an element of Israeli politics here. One of the reasons ostensibly given is that one of the talmidei chachamim on the team who wrote the sefer is from בית מדרש הגר״א, Rav Inbals yeshiva. The yeshiva has a somewhat unique derech  halimud that sets it apart from the classic yeshivos and includes machshava, mechkar, and contrasting the poshut pshat of tanach with the drush. It is controversial with Rav Dovid Cohen being a notable Rosh Yeshiva opposed to their derech. Complicating the picture, at one point Rav Inbal wrote a kuntrus in support of Rav Shteinman against Peleg which led to the Peleg newspaper mounting a campaign against him and his yeshiva.

In the lengthily kuntrus that was put out (the author emailed it to me) they claim they are judging the Sefer strictly on its content and not basing their criticism on any author but the accompanying literature does judge it based on one of the supposed authors.

The Eidah Hachareidis, initially a warm supporter of the Sefer has since put out a letter that Leshem will revise any issues before the next printing. The Kol Koreis on the other hand say the Seder is unfixable and should be removed.

The opposition circulated a while back in Israel. It was recently revived and pushed in America, one would assume by this blogger who wrote about it a couple of weeks ago and put infomercials in the papers. The fact that he appears to believe all sorts of conspiracy theories and blogs about the maskilim having secret groups infiltrating us today make me extra wary when that is the claim that it being made against the sefer.

I would definitely like to hear more from signatories who have gone through the Sefer and will articulate the concerns. One does not take such signatories lightly but neither does one trust every pashkevil that comes out purporting to have all the gedolim in opposition. Is there widespread agreement that the Sefer is melevolent or are there differing opinions. Is the problem with an author or is it the content. What is the specific problem with the content?

After going through quite a few pages of the kuntres, there seems to be several repetitions of the idea that Rashi IS THE POSHUT PSHAT , and to state that Rashi brings the Medrash on a particular possuk but there is also a poshut pshat is apikorsus.

As others have mentioned, the Rashbam says he spoke to his grandfather Rashi about putting out another biur with the poshut pshat and Rashi told him that if he had the time he would do exactly that. 





 The Ibn Ezra, Abarbanel, and a host of other Rishonim take pains to present the poshut pshat. For example when Rashi incorporates the Medrash of saddling the donkey himself, the Ibin Ezra says it was his servants. There are numerous other examples.

The kuntrus seems to feel it’s apikorsus to not bring Yaakov’s kefitzas haderech to Har Hamoria or the twelve stones turning into one, but why should that belong in the poshut pshat?

Is the problem that no one is on the level to say pshat nowadays, even pshat collated from the rishonim. The Torah is given over in pshat, Remez, drush and sod. One can put out a Sefer of drush without any issue. Why is pshat different?

Is the issue that they are teaching it to schoolchildren before Rashi? Is it a sixth sense that the work will have a detrimental effect on Klal Yisrael? I would love to hear from someone who went through the Sefer himself clearly articulate the exact issues.

If at the end of the day there is a clear consensus of our manhigim based on through familiarity with the Sefer that is good enough for me even if I wouldn’t understand their reasoning. I don’t thing we are currently at that point.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 01:35:35 AM by jye »

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #670 on: November 21, 2022, 11:26:19 PM »
I haven't seen the sefer. But is there anything wrong with pointing out where rashis pshat is slightly mechudash based on the simple teitch of the words?
Also, why is this different than artscroll which translates without incorporating divrei chazal? I wouldn't recommend learning chumsh from the artscroll translation without Rashi, but is it so terrible to publish it?

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #671 on: November 21, 2022, 11:26:34 PM »
Rav Gershon Ribner in his Shuz replay is talking about it now.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #672 on: November 21, 2022, 11:30:48 PM »
Rav Gershon Ribner in his Shuz replay is talking about it now.
5163878351

Offline yshad

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #673 on: November 21, 2022, 11:37:29 PM »
I find it interesting that we are talking about a Sefer published 6-7 years ago. What happened now?
Aside from the Badatz, has anyone who wrote a Haskamah to the Sefer retracted it?

Offline yitzgar

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #674 on: November 21, 2022, 11:40:20 PM »

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #675 on: November 21, 2022, 11:56:15 PM »
Did it just end?
Yes.
Sorry, got notified in middle and he finished right after I posted.

He made 3 points that he said struck him.
1. Where are the broad spectrum of Gedolim on this. Wouldn’t it have a much greater effect if Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky Rav Shloma Miller etc were also on? What did they have to say?
2. Did some hot head stir this up?
3. Did a lot of the signatories sign based on the judgment of one or two of them that they trusted?

I came on in middle so I hope I got the general gist and my synopsis is accurate.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2022, 11:59:31 PM by imayid2 »

Offline Anony Mouse

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #676 on: November 22, 2022, 12:02:35 AM »
But when almost every one of the contemporary roshei yeshiva I respect sign saying like one side, I follow that approach, and so should everyone else who follows them.

It happens to be that many of the Rabbonim who signed admitted having never seen the chumash. And there are many more preeminent Roshei Yeshiva whom you've heard of that intentionally did not sign the kol koreh.

Unfortunately, in Eretz Yisroel this is a major political fight, and it just so happens that the Eitz party is very against it (although they did not put out as strong of a kol koreh as the Rabbonim in Lakewood did. It appears that this has been exploited here in America and some rabble rouser Eitz followers persuaded some Gedolim sympathetic to Eitz to sign this Kol Koreh. Once they had those signatures in the bag, they then went around and pressured many other rank and file Rabbonim to sign. I have friends in Eretz Yisroel and to them this Lakewood debacle is a huge joke! They have been hocking about this chumash for five years now https://forum.otzar.org/viewtopic.php?t=20852, and although some do find the title of the chumash a little pompous, this kol koreh is just overkill.

In addition to the chumash of R' Shlomo Dubna mentioned earlier by Imayid2, in 1987 someone published a very similar chumash to the פשוטו של מקרא by the name of חומש מבואר, which did exactly what the פשוטו של מקרא chumash does. It received glowing haskamos from the Gedolim. What has changed now? Eitz was invented!

To see the full list of haskamos:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19Hplr5_OzCI37xUNonDxKIcHeNCRoj2M/view













Offline yitzgar

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #677 on: November 22, 2022, 12:12:41 AM »
Yes.
Sorry, got notified in middle and he finished right after I posted.

He made 3 points that he said struck him.
1. Where are the broad spectrum of Gedolim on this. Wouldn’t it have a much greater effect if Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky Rav Shloma Miller etc were also on? What did they have to say?
2. Did some hot head stir this up?
3. Did a lot of the signatories sign based on the judgment of one or two of them that they trusted?

I came on in middle so I hope I got the general gist and my synopsis is accurate.
These are all points we've been discussing here.
What bothers me most is the juxtaposition of the kol korei with the pamphlet, so everyone is conflating the two. When you read someone foaming at the mouth about kefira and reform and Mendelssohn, like a Democrat talking about Russia collusion, you pretty much ditch the whole thing and say they are being ridiculous. I'm sure a very large percentage of yated readers read both together and just rolled their eyes, while if it would have just been the kol korei, they would've taken it much more seriously.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #678 on: November 22, 2022, 12:29:05 AM »
Is the problem that no one is on the level to say pshat nowadays, even pshat collated from the rishonim. The Torah is given over in pshat, Remez, drush and sod. One can put out a Sefer of drush without any issue. Why is pshat different?
If there wasn’t so much noise we would be able to focus on subtleties like when he presents a pshat without naming the source or explaining why he is choosing that pshat.

Here is a perfect example: he explains אחרית הימים in ברכת יעקב as referring to the “distant future”, instead of what we all assume which is ימות המשיח. I heard someone yelling about the utter audacity, and why can’t ימות המשיח be pashut pshat the same way?

Indeed it sounded strange, but upon review although the Ramban and Sforno learn it refers to ימות המשיח, there is a whole list of Rishonim who disagree. The Netziv quite assertively contends that cannot be pshat and brings quite compelling proof ע״ש. I have no doubt that that is the reason why he chose it.

Still it is uncomfortable that he doesn’t feel a need to source it or explain why he chose it. He actually mentions in his introduction that due to the nature of the pirush he is unable to do so. But something like this which will throw people off he should be doing so. Presumably it is these types of things that the עדה is demanding needs to be tweaked.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
« Reply #679 on: November 22, 2022, 12:53:19 AM »
There is indeed an element of Israeli politics here. One of the reasons given is that one of the talmidei chachamim on the team who wrote the Seder is from בית מדרש הגר״א, Rav Inbals yeshiva. The yeshiva has a somewhat unique derech  halimud that sets it apart from the classic yeshivos and includes machshava, mechkar, and contrasting the poshut pshat of tanach with the drush. It is controversial with Rav Dovid Cohen being a notable Rosh Yeshiva opposed to their derech. Complicating the picture, at one point Rav Inbal wrote a kuntrus in support of Rav Shteinman against Peleg which led to the Peleg newspaper mounting a campaign against him and his yeshiva.
Though Leshem claims he was minimally involved anyway and the pirush has zero influence from that בית מדרש.
 רב נפתלי אנשין שליט״א  (a ר״מ in a Breslover Yeshiva, pretty funny place for a maskil to hide out)) who directed the project is a talmid of Rav Leibel Mintzburg who had a specific style of limud of pshat in תנ״ך. He incurred the wrath of נטורי קרתא when he broke with the עדה about the hardline approach to Zionism and accepted funds from the Israeli government.
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_%D7%91%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%A5