Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)

[jye]

From Rabbi Feldmans article in the new Dialogue on the subject

This does not align with Rav Uren Reich emphatically saying that several people wrote to Rav Chaim and he unambiguously answered (to Rav Shmuel as well) that one should vote. His speech was largely addressing the fact that so many said Rav Aharon and other leaders of the previous generation would have said not to vote and the idea that אין לך אלא כהן שבימיך.

https://vinnews.com/2020/03/04/major-development-exclusive-leaked-audio-rav-uren-reich-says-to-listen-to-rav-chaim-and-vote-for-eretz-haodesh/

[mevinyavin]

This does not align with Rav Uren Reich emphatically saying that several people wrote to Rav Chaim and he unambiguously answered (to Rav Shmuel as well) that one should vote. His speech was largely addressing the fact that so many said Rav Aharon and other leaders of the previous generation would have said not to vote and the idea that אין לך אלא כהן שבימיך.

https://vinnews.com/2020/03/04/major-development-exclusive-leaked-audio-rav-uren-reich-says-to-listen-to-rav-chaim-and-vote-for-eretz-haodesh/

Not to mention my Rebbe, R' Berkovits. I don't think he ever addressed the opposition's tainas to us - but I know for a fact that Rav Ahron, Shlita, called RB and begged him to reconsider, unsuccessfully.
RB is firm that you cannot know what the gedolei hador would have held on any topic (it's this week's parsha: "Even Yosef Hatzaddik misunderstood Yaakov Avinu!"), but it is doubtful that he would have encouraged voting if he didn't have strong good reasons.
I'll try to ask him about it when I get the chance. May take a while.

[imayid2]

This does not align with Rav Uren Reich emphatically saying that several people wrote to Rav Chaim and he unambiguously answered (to Rav Shmuel as well) that one should vote.

So why is this in dispute? Where are the letters, can we see them?

אין לך אלא כהן שבימיך.

Who’s the כהן שבימך that’s taking full אחריות for this? What’s with the wishy washiness? Where is a full throated letter from a Gadol giving clear instructions on the matter?

[EliJelly]

So why is this in dispute? Where are the letters, can we see them?Who’s the כהן שבימך that’s taking full אחריות for this?

The grandson Yanky for sure, the rest is unknown.

[yfr bachur]

This does not align with Rav Uren Reich emphatically saying that several people wrote to Rav Chaim and he unambiguously answered (to Rav Shmuel as well) that one should vote. His speech was largely addressing the fact that so many said Rav Aharon and other leaders of the previous generation would have said not to vote and the idea that אין לך אלא כהן שבימיך.

https://vinnews.com/2020/03/04/major-development-exclusive-leaked-audio-rav-uren-reich-says-to-listen-to-rav-chaim-and-vote-for-eretz-haodesh/

So why is this in dispute?

Because this comes from the Etznik camp. And the Eitznikim don't have the azus to argue on with Rav Chaim - their answer to everything that he said that they didn't agree with was "He didn't say it", "he didn't mean it" "he only said it because the people arround him fool him".
This was their argument in many issues, and was even the central  point of their first election campaign.
the point of view even on what fact is factual, on any issue in EY you must take in to account where the person is POLITICALY

[imayid2]

Because this comes from the Etznik camp. And the Eitznikim don't have the azus to argue on with Rav Chaim - their answer to everything that he said that they didn't agree with was "He didn't say it", "he didn't mean it" "he only said it because the people arround him fool him".
This was their argument in many issues, and was even the central  point of their first election campaign.
the point of view even on what fact is factual, on any issue in EY you must take in to account where the person is POLITICALY

Where are the letters, can we see them?Who’s the כהן שבימך that’s taking full אחריות for this? What’s with the wishy washiness? Where is a full throated letter from a Gadol giving clear instructions on the matter?

[jye]

So why is this in dispute? Where are the letters, can we see them?Who’s the כהן שבימך that’s taking full אחריות for this? What’s with the wishy washiness? Where is a full throated letter from a Gadol giving clear instructions on the matter?

“ Rav Chaim wrote back to Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky shlita five words, “Nachonim hadevarim v’rauh m’od l’hatzbiah – It is true [what is said in my name] and it is very important to vote.”

Maybe ask Rav Uren Reich if he personally saw the letters or knows who has them. This issue is 2 years old- not sure why it should be rehashed now.

[imayid2]

“ Rav Chaim wrote back to Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky shlita five words, “Nachonim hadevarim v’rauh m’od l’hatzbiah – It is true [what is said in my name] and it is very important to vote.”

“To his deep dismay however, what he received was a paper with some entirely illegible scrawls on it.”
“Rav Kamenetzky discounted the veracity of the claim of Rav Chaim's support.”

This issue is 2 years old- not sure why it should be rehashed now.

Because this article was just printed. Which is totally denying support from כהן שבימיך. At the time this question very much irked me:

Where is a full throated letter from a Gadol giving clear instructions on the matter?

And as such, despite some of these names being very meaningful to me, I could not sign my soul to the devil.

[imayid2]

It’s not relevant that extremists were behind the smear campaign that the signatories fell for hook line and sinker?

why dont the signers themselves come put with a clear letter apologizing for this chillul hashem and shfichus damim???!!!!

[jye]

why dont the signers themselves come put with a clear letter apologizing for this chillul hashem and shfichus damim???!!!!

I think we have to take a step back and chill here. It’s fine to discuss פשוטו של מקרא and the back and forth over it, but this is getting quite personal. Do you think this is the first Kol koreh that there was an issue with or a retraction. The signatories are respected rabbonim and can make up their own minds as to if and when a retraction or other action is warranted. They have many cheshbonos in mind. Rav Shlomo Miller has his cheshbonos for not putting out anything even if he felt “they were signing against Rishonim”.

I’m uncomfortable with DDF making WZO into a “he said he said” among gedolim and impuning the decision making process of major rabbonim when it comes to פשוטו של מקרא. Even if it was שלא כהוגן , jumping into a מחלוקת לשם שמים in a personal  fashion runs the risk of פן תכוה בגחלתן.

[dm123]

why dont the signers themselves come put with a clear letter apologizing for this chillul hashem and shfichus damim???!!!!

Moche on the calling shfichus domim and chilul hashem.

Is there evidence of physical harm to those involved in PSM? Or are you making an exaggerated statement due to the loss of parnasa and respect the PSM authors/publishers may have had?

Aside from R Aharon Feldman, which original signers said publicly the original kol koreh was a lie? Most AFAIK have not said anything and a few signed onto the eidahs old statement without expressly retracting the original. Perhaps I missed it, if so please point me to it.

[imayid2]

I think we have to take a step back and chill here. It’s fine to discuss פשוטו של מקרא and the back and forth over it, but this is getting quite personal. Do you think this is the first Kol koreh that there was an issue with or a retraction.

Can’t think of anything on such a colossal level.
Those are not my words. I copied and pasted from a prominent Rav.

They have many cheshbonos in mind.

They were clueless.

I’m uncomfortable with DDF making WZO into a “he said he said” among gedolim

It is not a DDF thing. It is current events as Rabbi Feldman just published an article lambasting it.

[imayid2]

Moche on the calling shfichus domim and chilul hashem.

Those are not my words. I copied and pasted from a prominent Rav.

[dm123]

Those are not my words. I copied and pasted from a prominent Rav.

Source please?

[imayid2]

Source please?

Your request has been denied. He has not said this publicly for obvious reasons.

[aygart]

why dont the signers themselves come put with a clear letter apologizing for this chillul hashem and shfichus damim???!!!!

I haven't even seen a retraction. R Feldman remains opposed to the sefer even according to the new letter.

[imayid2]

I haven't even seen a retraction. R Feldman remains opposed to the sefer even according to the new letter.

I’m not quite understanding the defense mechanism you’re employing but if it makes you feel better I’m happy for you.

[jye]

Your request has been denied. He has not said this publicly for obvious reasons.

Sorry, a copy/paste from a prominent Rov who must remain anonymous does not make it appropriate to post on DDF. Often when there is a disagreement sharp words are said from one side to the other. They are sometimes not meant to be taken literally and they are definitely not meant to be used as a broadside against the other position on a public forum.

[dm123]

Your request has been denied. He has not said this publicly for obvious reasons.

Calling on gedolim to apologize for shfichus domim and chillul Hashem is a very strong claim. You'd need either a daas Torah to publicly say it, or extremely strong proof, or possibly something else. I understand why this rov may not want to say this publicly, but still if you are publicizing the claim, it's a very strong claim to be making and expecting others to accept it from an anonymous source bc of the source.

[imayid2]

Calling on gedolim to apologize for shfichus domim and chillul Hashem is a very strong claim. You'd need either a daas Torah to publicly say it, or extremely strong proof, or possibly something else.

Their signature was affixed to a proclamation calling a chashiva talmid chacham and ירא שמים a maskil etc. As per Rav Aaron Feldman and the Badatz who’ve been intimately involved for years this is pure libel.
What proof are you asking for, that their signatures appeared, that that disgusting slanderous claim isn’t true, that the libel is affecting that תלמיד חכם, that they have not clarified, as Rabbi Feldman did, that they didn’t sign that kol koreh?
Let me know, happy to provide.