Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)

[imayid2]

Often when there is a disagreement sharp words are said from one side to the other.

There are red lines.

[imayid2]

Is there evidence of physical harm to those involved in PSM?

Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me?

[aygart]

I’m not quite understanding the defense mechanism you’re employing but if it makes you feel better I’m happy for you.

You have presented zero evidence of the claims you are making. There has not yet been a single retraction saying they feel the sefer is okay. The most anyone has said was that their opposition was taken further than they intended while starting specifically that they remain opposed to the sefer itself. The whole pamphlet you posted to supposedly show that the entire opposition was made up has 2 letters attached to it that say they are opposed to the sefer. You really seem to be misrepresenting what they are saying.

[jye]

Their signature was affixed to a proclamation calling a chashiva talmid chacham and ירא שמים a maskil etc. As per Rav Aaron Feldman and the Badatz who’ve been intimately involved for years this is pure libel.
What proof are you asking for, that their signatures appeared, that that disgusting slanderous claim isn’t true, that the libel is affecting that תלמיד חכם, that they have not clarified, as Rabbi Feldman did, that they didn’t sign that kol koreh?
Let me know, happy to provide.

So long as we are discussing sources that support the premise of the Sefer, or misunderstandings or misrepresentations made to signatories against the Sefer, I’m good. Positing on a public forum that the rabbonim now have full knowledge but are making a bad decision is NOT ok. It presumes that either

A) we are smarter than the rabbonim and are capable of making better decisions given the same knowledge of the same facts, or

B) even worse- that their is some cowardice or other such motivation that is preventing all the rabbonim from doing the right thing. Anyone who has worked with or interacted with these rabbonim knows that this couldn’t be further from the truth. Therefore such discussion has no place on a public forum.

[imayid2]

You have presented zero evidence of the claims you are making. There has not yet been a single retraction saying they feel the sefer is okay.

Are you following this conversation? Why do you keep repeating this?

[imayid2]

So long as we are discussing sources that support the premise of the Sefer, or misunderstandings or misrepresentations made to signatories against the Sefer, I’m good. Positing on a public forum that the rabbonim now have full knowledge but are making a bad decision is NOT ok. It presumes that either

אם קודם המעשה אמרה שומעיו לו, אם לאו אין שומעין לו.

In all however, your post is cleverly worded. I shall desist if this is discontinued.

[aygart]

Are you following this conversation? Why do you keep repeating this?

Because it is the truth and you keep trying to make it seem otherwise. The only thing posted that comes close were unatributted quotes posted by people ignoring the very letters they themselves posted saying not to learn from it.

[imayid2]

Because it is the truth and you keep trying to make it seem otherwise.

How so?

The only thing posted that comes close were unatributted quotes posted by people ignoring the very letters they themselves posted saying not to learn from it.

You seem to be under the impression that there is a contradiction between the quotes and the badatzes letter. You are very wrong.

[aygart]

How so?You seem to be under the impression that there is a contradiction between the quotes and the badatzes letter. You are very wrong.

Ahh so you mean that all agree not to learn from it even according to the self-professed learns of the sefer?

[yelped]

Oh boy, I'm biting my tongue regarding some Litvak outlook vs Lubavitch (and Chassidim in general) jokes here.

[imayid2]

Ahh so you mean that all agree not to learn from it

You keep harping on this. No not all would agree to such a blanket statement. That’s not what the Badatz meant. They are making a general appeal because of the reasons they outlined which can potentially be a problem for specific groups. Did you read what רב חזן wrote?

[imayid2]

Did you read what רב חזן wrote?

הנני הח"מ מכיר במישרין מרישא עד גמירא, באשר מוניתי במיוחד ע"י חברי הביד"צ העדה החרדית שליט"א להעבירו תחת שבט הביקורת. עברתי על כל הנכתב בזמנו, ואף חזרתי ועיינתי בו לעומק כמה וכמה שנים על הסדר, ומצאתיו כולו קודש, נקי מכל רבב, נשען מתחילה ועד סוף על מקורות איתנים ונאמנים ה"ה מפרשי התורה רבותינו הראשונים והאחרונים, בשפה ברורה ונעימה וטבולה ביראת שמים טהורה.
כמה יגיעות יגעו וכמה טרחות טרחו גם שאר העוסקים במלאכת הקודש להוציא דבר מתוקן מתחת ידם, ובכל זאת 'שגיאות מי יבין', והואיל והשגת ידו של אדם רחוקה מלהיות מושלמת, בקשתנו כבר שטוחה ועומדת מלפני הלומדים והמעיינים שלא למנוע מאיתנו טובה, ולהאיר עינינו בכל מקום שנמצא טעות או פגם, כדי שנוכל לתקנו במהדורות הבאות. העורכים והמבקרים כאחד ששים אל האמת כמוצאי שלל רב, כל הערה או הצעה מתקבלת בכבוד ובהערכה, ונבדקת ונשקלת בכובד ראש.
אמנם אף לא לעדותי הדברים צריכים, שכן כל מה שנכתב כאן ניתן לבדיקה ולבירור בקלות רבה, מאחר שכל העוסקים במלאכת הקודש נקובים בשמותם, ודרכי יצירת הקשר עמהם גלויים וברורים לכל דורש, ומן הדין היה שהמפורסמות הללו לא יהיו צריכות ראיה כל עיקר.
ויהי רצון שנזכה להגדיל תורה ולהאדירה ולהרבות כבוד שמים, וה' הטוב ישמור ויגן על שארית עמו, והאמת והשלום אהבו.
הרב פנחס חזן חתן הגה"ח רבי חיים אורי פריינד שליט"א - חבר הביד"צ העדה החרדית

[aygart]

You keep harping on this. No not all would agree to such a blanket statement. Not even the Badatz. They are making a general appeal because of the reasons they outlined which can potentially be a problem for specific groups.

That is not what they wrote no matter how many times you try to present it that way.
Looks very similar to this

Because this comes from the Etznik camp. And the Eitznikim don't have the azus to argue on with Rav Chaim - their answer to everything that he said that they didn't agree with was "He didn't say it", "he didn't mean it" "he only said it because the people arround him fool him".
This was their argument in many issues, and was even the central  point of their first election campaign.
the point of view even on what fact is factual, on any issue in EY you must take in to account where the person is POLITICALY

[imayid2]

That is not what they wrote no matter how many times you try to present it that way

The only thing you’ve pointed to is that they learn and enjoy the sefer.
What else did they write that says otherwise?

[jye]

Can we get this thread back on track. Anyone catch the chinuch  round table this week in the Yated about the lone father who makes his kid stand by the kiddush until all adults are seated. At my shul the kiddush is more or less a communal kugel fest where more than half the attendees probably don’t know the baalei Simcha in any meaningful way and the kids grab for the kugel from the tray before it hits the table. Often the tray never makes it to the table. I would estimate that almost half the people by the kiddush eat and leave without bothering to wish the Baal simcha Mazel tov. I stopped telling my kid to stand became so I don’t think it’s fair for him to be the korban when everyone else’s kids sit leaving adults standing. Sometimes when it’s especially egregious with the grabbing I’ll tell him I’m leaving now and he’s welcome to stay.

At a kiddush by a shul down the block a couple eeeks ago I watched open mouthed as all the kids took up position in the seats around the tables as the adults spread tablecloths and set up! There were maybe one or two tables left for adults, so crowds of them stood. How are we supposed to be mechanics our kids in this out of hand situation. It’s prevalent to some degree in every shul in my neighborhood so switching shuls is not really an option.

[aygart]

The only thing you’ve pointed to is that they learn and enjoy the sefer.
What else did they write that says otherwise?

Both the Badatz and RFeldman reiterated that it should not be learned from in its current form.

[aygart]

Can we get this thread back on track. Anyone catch the chinuch  round table this week in the Yated about the lone father who makes his kid stand by the kiddush until all adults are seated. At my shul the kiddush is more or less a communal kugel fest where more than half the attendees probably don’t know the baalei Simcha in any meaningful way and the kids grab for the kugel from the tray before it hits the table. Often the tray never makes it to the table. I would estimate that almost half the people by the kiddush eat and leave without bothering to wish the Baal simcha Mazel tov. I stopped telling my kid to stand became so I don’t think it’s fair for him to be the korban when everyone else’s kids sit leaving adults standing. Sometimes when it’s especially egregious with the grabbing I’ll tell him I’m leaving now and he’s welcome to stay.

At a kiddush by a shul down the block a couple eeeks ago I watched open mouthed as all the kids took up position in the seats around the tables as the adults spread tablecloths and set up! There were maybe one or two tables left for adults, so crowds of them stood. How are we supposed to be mechanics our kids in this out of hand situation. It’s prevalent to some degree in every shul in my neighborhood so switching shuls is not really an option.

It is a serious issue. I've said to people that I don't think I am young enough to sit down at a kiddush.

[drosenberg88429]

Can we get this thread back on track. Anyone catch the chinuch  round table this week in the Yated about the lone father who makes his kid stand by the kiddush until all adults are seated. At my shul the kiddush is more or less a communal kugel fest where more than half the attendees probably don’t know the baalei Simcha in any meaningful way and the kids grab for the kugel from the tray before it hits the table. Often the tray never makes it to the table. I would estimate that almost half the people by the kiddush eat and leave without bothering to wish the Baal simcha Mazel tov. I stopped telling my kid to stand became so I don’t think it’s fair for him to be the korban when everyone else’s kids sit leaving adults standing. Sometimes when it’s especially egregious with the grabbing I’ll tell him I’m leaving now and he’s welcome to stay.

At a kiddush by a shul down the block a couple eeeks ago I watched open mouthed as all the kids took up position in the seats around the tables as the adults spread tablecloths and set up! There were maybe one or two tables left for adults, so crowds of them stood. How are we supposed to be mechanics our kids in this out of hand situation. It’s prevalent to some degree in every shul in my neighborhood so switching shuls is not really an option.

I had 2 questions regarding this week's yated chinuch roundtable.

A) Where in shulchan aruch does it say that kids have to stand for adults or show them respect?

B) How many of the adults complaining stand up whenever someone 70+ walks into the room?

[aygart]

I had 2 questions regarding this week's yated chinuch roundtable.

A) Where in shulchan aruch does it say that kids have to stand for adults or show them respect?

B) How many of the adults complaining stand up whenever someone 70+ walks into the room?

I think the vast majority would offer their seat to a 70 year old with no seat at a kiddush.

[drosenberg88429]

I think the vast majority would offer their seat to a 70 year old with no seat at a kiddush.

That wasn't question. (Whether kids would or wouldn't give their seat to 70 year old with no seat at kiddush is separate theoretical question.) The concept of children being seen and not heard and always showing deference to and ascribing superiority to seems to be traditional in hierarchical societies and was commonly adhered to in colonial times. I'm not sure how well sourced it is in halacha, though. Where did these values really originate?

In halacha, there are 3 basic groups that we stand up for: parents (and grandparents etc), seniors, and Torah sages/one's Torah teachers. I'm not sure where general adults fall into that.