Author Topic: New standard for Hebrew keyboards  (Read 4418 times)

Online ExGingi

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New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« on: April 16, 2018, 10:12:53 PM »
Israeli media outlets are reporting a change to the standard layout, unifying certain punctuation marks with the English (and regular english  ;)) qwerty keyboard, and distancing the final noon (ן) from the vov (ו) to reduce errors.

https://www.themarker.com/technation/1.6008425

Will you switch?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline bestwatchman

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2018, 02:38:52 AM »
I like it!

Offline cholent

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2018, 03:16:41 AM »
As previous attempts with the English keyboard have proven, it's hard to get people to switch from what they know. I'll stick to the Hebrew keyboard that I can touch type now
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Offline yesitsme

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2018, 06:27:43 AM »
As previous attempts with the English keyboard have proven, it's hard to get people to switch from what they know. I'll stick to the Hebrew keyboard that I can touch type now
For all those that have a hard time typing Hebrew at least from now they'll know where the comma period is located, vs english keyboard wysiwyg.
["-"]

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2018, 07:41:42 AM »
As previous attempts with the English keyboard have proven, it's hard to get people to switch from what they know. I'll stick to the Hebrew keyboard that I can touch type now
I have been touch typing in Hebrew (and English) for longer than several people around here have been on this planet, so I doubt whether I will switch. That being said, the changes, while significant in their effects, are quite minor (only 3 characters moved IINM). I think I could adapt pretty fast if I decided to do so.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2018, 10:46:03 AM »
I have been touch typing in Hebrew (and English) for longer than several people around here have been on this planet, so I doubt whether I will switch. That being said, the changes, while significant in their effects, are quite minor (only 3 characters moved IINM). I think I could adapt pretty fast if I decided to do so.
ף,ץ & ת all move, I wouldn't be able to get used to it quickly. They also changed the location for all the נקודות (currently CAPS + Shift + numbers) which will definitely be annoying to those who use them
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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2018, 10:56:48 AM »
ף,ץ & ת all move, I wouldn't be able to get used to it quickly. They also changed the location for all the נקודות (currently CAPS + Shift + numbers) which will definitely be annoying to those who use them
The big one is the ת. The ץ moves to the ` key which is all the way out and difficult to reach when touch typing.
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Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2018, 11:05:57 AM »
The big one is the ת. The ץ moves to the ` key which is all the way out and difficult to reach when touch typing.
+1
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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2018, 11:42:24 AM »
They also changed the location for all the נקודות (currently CAPS + Shift + numbers) which will definitely be annoying to those who use them
CMIIAW but I doubt anyone touch-types nekudos using current key combinations. I would assume that those that do a significant amount of nikud do it separately than typing text, and likely use a specialized layout.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2018, 12:18:37 PM »
CMIIAW but I doubt anyone touch-types nekudos using current key combinations. I would assume that those that do a significant amount of nikud do it separately than typing text, and likely use a specialized layout.
I don't do a significant amount of Nekudos at all, but I've done it quite a few times and I know the order by heart. I don't know what the professionals use (although, it does make sense that they don't use the CAPS + Shift + numbers system)
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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2018, 12:36:26 PM »
I don't do a significant amount of Nekudos at all, but I've done it quite a few times and I know the order by heart. I don't know what the professionals use (although, it does make sense that they don't use the CAPS + Shift + numbers system)

Are you an educator? IME most fonts under most Windows programs don't have proper support for Nekudos in the first place (SBL Hebrew and a few others being the exception, and even with those, often users don't know how to use the nekudos properly, resulting in inadequate outcomes). So I still maintain, that the nekudos are a total non-issue. Actually, strike that, I just looked at the placement of nekudos in the new layout, and it seems to be a lot more conducive to touch-typing, with placement in the 3 primary rows.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2018, 02:15:41 PM »
Are you an educator? IME most fonts under most Windows programs don't have proper support for Nekudos in the first place (SBL Hebrew and a few others being the exception, and even with those, often users don't know how to use the nekudos properly, resulting in inadequate outcomes). So I still maintain, that the nekudos are a total non-issue. Actually, strike that, I just looked at the placement of nekudos in the new layout, and it seems to be a lot more conducive to touch-typing, with placement in the 3 primary rows.
I'm not an educator, I've used it multiple times for various different reasons, I'm a fast learner :)

Isn't the whole idea in your OP meant to be more conducive to touch typing? The question was if people will switch, and I added another reason why it'd be harder/more annoying to switch. In my specific case that would be a major con to switching.
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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2018, 02:23:08 PM »
What I didn't notice originally, but did after going back to review the layout when you mentioned nekudos, and actually think might be a deal breaker on the adoption of this layout, is the placement of the ץ. That location is both out of range for touch typing, and inconsistent across keyboards, with some smaller or slightly modified keyboards having the key for `/~ placed elsewhere due to the rarity of use in English.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2018, 02:38:37 PM »
What I didn't notice originally, but did after going back to review the layout when you mentioned nekudos, and actually think might be a deal breaker on the adoption of this layout, is the placement of the ץ. That location is both out of range for touch typing, and inconsistent across keyboards, with some smaller or slightly modified keyboards having the key for `/~ placed elsewhere due to the rarity of use in English.
The big one is the ת. The ץ moves to the ` key which is all the way out and difficult to reach when touch typing.
(emphasis mine)
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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2018, 02:43:38 PM »
(emphasis mine)

I guess I missed that, but I contend that while the new location for ת which is more commonly used than ץ is adaptable, the location of the ץ is truly problematic on both issues pointed out.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Yisroel Tech

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2018, 10:12:34 PM »
They also changed the location for all the נקודות (currently CAPS + Shift + numbers) which will definitely be annoying to those who use them
That is not new now, the default Hebrew keyboard layout []named "Hebrew (standard)", unlike the plain Hebrew one available to add] already uses this method for Nikkud, and it is definitely much better than the CAPS + Shift + numbers method, for two reasons. 1) It is only two keys and easier to use [fewer key presses] 2) It is more easily memorizable since they use the letter that the start with ק is for Kummatz פ is for Pasach ס is for Segoil, and so on.

Offline yesitsme

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2018, 12:43:27 AM »
Now you have another thing to take in mind when logging in remotely and typing in Hebrew.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2018, 01:30:19 AM »
As someone who doesn't type much Hebrew, and uses the English keyboard with no stickers, I like the change.
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Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2018, 11:14:04 AM »
That is not new now, the default Hebrew keyboard layout []named "Hebrew (standard)", unlike the plain Hebrew one available to add] already uses this method for Nikkud, and it is definitely much better than the CAPS + Shift + numbers method, for two reasons. 1) It is only two keys and easier to use [fewer key presses] 2) It is more easily memorizable since they use the letter that the start with ק is for Kummatz פ is for Pasach ס is for Segoil, and so on.
Interesting, I didn't know that!
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Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: New standard for Hebrew keyboards
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2018, 11:15:08 AM »
As someone who doesn't type much Hebrew, and uses the English keyboard with no stickers, I like the change.
Why do you like it? And what does it have to do with not using stickers (CMIIW but most touch-typers don't use stickers...)
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