Poll

As a DDF member do you hold one day in Israel?

One day
13 (35.1%)
Two Day
22 (59.5%)
Its still chag but I reply anyway
2 (5.4%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: One day or two  (Read 20028 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2018, 09:23:44 PM »


So no more asking shaalos from Israeli police officers? It's cheder yinglach now?  :)
I guess Cheder Yinglach are unaware of the shitta of the חכם צבי.

Is there a נפק״מ whether a person is traveling alone or with family?

My guess is that due to the fact that there have been seemingly contradicting indications from the Rebbe on this topic, some Rabbonim try to avoid ruling, and just find it easier to send to someone else. While others, who are very well versed in the fifth part of Shulchan Oruch, deliberately point the question asking to a Rov they know would paskens in a way that the person will be happy with.
They most definitely are unaware. They only know the bottom line and outside of lunch that is the bottom line at least among most Ashkenezim.

That was my assumption about why a rov would do that.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Ergel

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2018, 02:03:42 AM »
Maybe yes, and maybe not. Let's hear some non-Lubavitchers chime in on this one, if you ask your Rov in the US whether you need to keep one day or two in EY, does he give you a psak, or does he send you to ask a Rov in EY?
So that's your issue? The semantics? So let's just call it shorter rather than abbreviated.
I don't recall ever having quoted the Chasam Sofer.
No, my issue is with your condescending, holier than thou attitude with the unwillingness or inability to see something from any other viewpoint that your version of your Rebbe.

You present as fact in this thread that there will be two days yuntif laasid lavo. I assume your Rebbe said this at some point? Was it a recurring theme in his teachings? Is it printed somewhere? Is it based on any mekoros?
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline yitrap

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2018, 06:04:26 AM »
Many Ashkenzi poskim depend on the Chacham Tzvi for Bnei Chu"l that are in EY for a longer period of time.

The reasoning that speaks to me most is the Kedusha of EY is so powerful that what someone in EY can accomplish in one day takes two in Chu"l.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2018, 12:16:53 PM »
No, my issue is with your condescending, holier than thou attitude with the unwillingness or inability to see something from any other viewpoint that your version of your Rebbe.

You present as fact in this thread that there will be two days yuntif laasid lavo. I assume your Rebbe said this at some point? Was it a recurring theme in his teachings? Is it printed somewhere? Is it based on any mekoros?

So much to respond to, I hope I won't miss anything.

But first a prologue:

I enjoy making controversial statements. Often, one has to read my statements carefully in order to figure out where I stand on something. I enjoy provoking thought and having a meritorious intellectual discussion. Sometimes I am proven wrong, and I have no problem publicly admitting it. Due to the nature of DDF, and especially JS, and the fact that interaction is often on a small screen with a virtual keyboard that has a mind of its own, the conversation is more prone to having regrettable errors in it. Other than the great regrettable error of making you feel that I had a condescending holier than though attitude towards you, or anyone else, I don't recall being proven wrong on the facts or (very limited) analysis on this thread.

You have been around here longer than I have, so I would have assumed that you are familiar with my style. But from this most recent post of yours, it seems like you have allowed some emotional interference to obstruct the facts (and I will admit that while I never have a condescending, or g-d forbid holier than though, mindset, my writing can sometimes come across as such, even though it is definitely not the intent, but rather intended as sounding controversial in order to pep up the conversation).

And now, please show me where you see in my writings an "unwillingness or inability to see something from any other viewpoint that your version of your Rebbe"? Or where I "present as fact in this thread that there will be two days yuntif laasid lavo"?

Let's make sure we are on the page understanding each other's statements, and then we can get into sources.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Dan

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2018, 12:24:43 PM »
No, my issue is with your condescending, holier than thou attitude with the unwillingness or inability to see something from any other viewpoint that your version of your Rebbe.
To paraphrase JJ's astute comment from a couple years ago:
@ExGingi is starting to become the Chabad version of @churnbabychurn (no offense CBC).
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Ergel

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #85 on: May 26, 2018, 03:34:31 PM »
To paraphrase JJ's astute comment from a couple years ago:
Funny, I was looking for that comment and couldn't find it.
@ExGingi I think you are completely not self aware. I'm done here
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #86 on: May 26, 2018, 07:41:34 PM »
The reasoning that speaks to me most is the Kedusha of EY is so powerful that what someone in EY can accomplish in one day takes two in Chu"l.
That is a Ramban about general Bnei Chu"l and is unrelated to the Chacham Tzvi's Psak
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline yitrap

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #87 on: May 26, 2018, 07:44:08 PM »
That is a Ramban about general Bnei Chu"l and is unrelated to the Chacham Tzvi's Psak
Wasn't trying to say it was. Was making two separate statements.

Offline a mirrer

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #88 on: May 27, 2018, 07:26:59 AM »
I think that for non-lubavitch the psak is going to be pretty clear that they should keep two days. Every cheder ingle knows that.
r' shlomo zalman told my grandmother to do one day as einiklich of the chacham tzvi

Offline Dan

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2018, 08:04:50 AM »
I think that for non-lubavitch the psak is going to be pretty clear that they should keep two days. Every cheder ingle knows that.
We saw lots of non-Israeli/non-chabad people doing one day...
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yesitsme

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #90 on: May 27, 2018, 08:09:56 AM »
We saw lots of non-Israeli/non-chabad people doing one day...
Sfard, Ashkenaz, chasidish, not chasidish?
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Offline davidrotts63

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #91 on: May 27, 2018, 08:14:07 AM »
We saw lots of non-Israeli/non-chabad people doing one day...
I don't want to sound judgemental, and if I do too bad, but, frum?
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Offline Dan

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #92 on: May 27, 2018, 08:16:41 AM »
Y'all seem very sheltered...
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #93 on: May 27, 2018, 08:23:55 AM »
Y'all seem very sheltered...
That very well may be. But AFAIK as @aygart pointed out the practically universal Psak for litvish Ashkenazim is to go by your home town. It is to a point where I will ask that question when I heard what you said.....
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Offline yesitsme

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #94 on: May 27, 2018, 08:27:13 AM »
Y'all seem very sheltered...
Thanks for the complement.

All chasidusin IMHO have there minhagim and hold 2 days, sfardim iirc hold 1, Chabad confused, those that belong to local kehila depend on their ruv, a belzer bobover geererr satmar.... Wouldn't even ask a shaila unless they are (planning) to make an Aliya.

And that explains
I think that for non-lubavitch the psak is going to be pretty clear that they should keep two days. Every cheder ingle knows that.
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Offline aygart

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #95 on: May 27, 2018, 09:20:33 AM »
r' shlomo zalman told my grandmother to do one day as einiklich of the chacham tzvi
The exception that shows the rule.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline mgarfin

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #96 on: May 27, 2018, 09:26:17 AM »
We saw lots of non-Israeli/non-chabad people doing one day...

My memory tells me R' JB held you should do one day in Israel.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 09:45:19 AM by mgarfin »

Offline thaber

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #97 on: May 28, 2018, 04:33:10 AM »
My memory tells me R' JB held you should do one day in Israel.
Never heard that. Sefardim, chabad, and people who go regularly for all 3 regalim (based on RSZA) are the usual suspects. The more zionistic MO crowd will look for a way to keep one day. Family with or without its not generally a factor outside of chabad. Chacham Zvi is used as a tziruf.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: One day or two
« Reply #98 on: May 28, 2018, 12:11:34 PM »
The more zionistic MO crowd will look for a way to keep one day.
And I thought that only Lubavitchers are allowed to do that.

All joking aside, I think the statement that
Chabad [is] confused

is a rather accurate portrayal of the situation regarding how many days to keep in different scenarios.

And the reason is probably
due to the fact that there have been seemingly contradicting indications from the Rebbe on this topic,

I am no expert or בקיא in this הלכה, but I have a סברא that I would like to offer as a possible explanations to the various rulings.

We see that in this specific הלכה, it is dependent not only on the circumstances, but rather on the דעת of the person in question. The unequivocal rulings assume a certain prevailing דעת of a person in such a circumstance, whereas the ones which are individual rulings, rather than by the book (I.e. where soft facts are involved, rather than just a psak that can be seemingly given based on hard facts) give more weight to the individual דעת. (And I would add that even the דעת of being a descendent of the חכם צבי, might affect the ruling).

R' Mendel Futerfas accepted the position of משפיע in Kfar Chabad, on "condition" that he is there אדעתא דרביה. As such, IINM in all his years living in Kfar Chabad he kept two days even when he was there for YT. His grandson does the same to this very day.

And that might answer @Ergel's question to me regarding the relevance of the reference I pointed to here. What those quotes show is the (potential) strength of the דעת of a Lubavitcher of where he feels at home (as in the opposite of בנים שגלו מעל שולחן אביהם).

Yet, this דעת can be very individualized, and furthermore could evolve, this might be somewhat akin to the not sleeping in the Sukkah issue, with the explanation the Rebbe bring about מצטער פטור מן הסוכה.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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