Author Topic: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions  (Read 13626 times)

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2018, 11:14:42 AM »
Talk to any competent tax attorney. Better yet find someone involved in this situation.
Talked to a tax attorney in a case right now. He just doesn't understand churning so I got little clarity.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2018, 11:16:45 AM »
Talked to a tax attorney in a case right now. He just doesn't understand churning so I got little clarity.
Churning is relatively simple to explain, so is MSing, any attorney worth his salt should be able to understand the basics, my $.02.
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Offline AJK

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #122 on: July 05, 2018, 11:18:55 AM »
Talked to a tax attorney in a case right now. He just doesn't understand churning so I got little clarity.
Has nothing to do with churning.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #123 on: July 05, 2018, 11:19:25 AM »
Talked to a tax attorney in a case right now. He just doesn't understand churning so I got little clarity.
Ouch! Run as fast as you can from that guy.
When I had my issue it took the attorney all of thirty minutes to understand MS and the first consultation was free. :)
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #124 on: July 05, 2018, 11:26:40 AM »


Ouch! Run as fast as you can from that guy.
When I had my issue it took the attorney all of thirty minutes to understand MS and the first consultation was free. :)



Has nothing to do with churning.



Churning is relatively simple to explain, so is MSing, any attorney worth his salt should be able to understand the basics, my $.02.

Trying to understand if there should be a difference between general spend (more logical to be a purchase rebate) and MS. And if there is a difference between CB vs. Points for use vs. Points sold, is a little hard to comprehend without much knowledge.
Aside from that fact that all he can tell me is his feel, since the case is pending in court.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #125 on: July 05, 2018, 11:28:52 AM »





Trying to understand if there should be a difference between general spend (more logical to be a purchase rebate) and MS. And if there is a difference between CB vs. Points for use vs. Points sold, is a little hard to comprehend without much knowledge.
No it's not, he may not be able to tell you what the actual law is but he should definitely be able to understand it.
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Offline AJK

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #126 on: July 05, 2018, 11:30:33 AM »
In broad strokes:

-Yes, difference between generic spend and manufactured spend.
--Yes, difference between points and cash back.
--Yes, difference between personal use and selling.

This is not legal advice. Consult your own professional.
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Offline henche

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #127 on: July 05, 2018, 11:31:05 AM »





Trying to understand if there should be a difference between general spend (more logical to be a purchase rebate) and MS. And if there is a difference between CB vs. Points for use vs. Points sold, is a little hard to comprehend without much knowledge.
Aside from that fact that all he can tell me is his feel, since the case is pending in court.

There's a case pending in tax court?

Offline Dan

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #128 on: July 05, 2018, 11:34:20 AM »
@henche, what's your opinion?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #129 on: July 05, 2018, 11:43:44 AM »
There is a big difference between the position the IRS is taking and what we (tax attorneys) think they should.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Dan

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #130 on: July 05, 2018, 11:48:29 AM »
There is a big difference between the position the IRS is taking and what we (tax attorneys) think they should.
The IRS can take any position they want, doesn't mean they'll win.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #131 on: July 05, 2018, 11:50:48 AM »
The IRS can take any position they want, doesn't mean they'll win.
What it means is BIG buck attorney fees.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #132 on: July 05, 2018, 11:58:42 AM »
In broad strokes:

-Yes, difference between generic spend and manufactured spend.
--Yes, difference between points and cash back.
--Yes, difference between personal use and selling.

This is not legal advice. Consult your own professional.
That was my understanding. And what I took out is I who earns miles from generic spend and MS for personal use, not for resale would not have to file for that. But cashback from MS I would and from generic spend I won't. Please CMIIW.
There's a case pending in tax court?
So he says
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #133 on: July 05, 2018, 12:05:45 PM »
That was my understanding. And what I took out is I who earns miles from generic spend and MS for personal use, not for resale would not have to file for that. But cashback from MS I would and from generic spend I won't.
Basically no difference between CB, miles and points to the IRS. The problem with some types of MS for personal use is at some point the IRS will claim it is a business.


I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #134 on: July 05, 2018, 01:49:41 PM »
Did the IRS start posting on DDF?

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #135 on: July 05, 2018, 01:53:01 PM »
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch

Offline henche

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #136 on: July 05, 2018, 02:30:20 PM »
Here are some sevaras I'm thinking, although again, haven't really looked into this and many here have probably thought about it more than me.

1. CB, points on generic spend, seem akin to a rebate, which means you just paid less for the potatoes you were buying. Hard to see that as taxable.

2. Same with FF miles you get for flying. You just paid less for your flight.

3. IRS Announcement 2002-18 was about business travel. Your employer pays for your flight, and you get miles. If was like scenario 2, the employer would get the miles. So this is more like your employer giving you additional compensation in miles, but IRS was mochel it.

4. Points or miles you get from deposit bank accounts, seem most like interest income. Hard to see it as anything different.

5. MS from buying groups.  If you treat it as having paid less for potatoes, like under scenario 1, then your basis in the potatoes is less, and  you had a profit when you onsold it to the buying club guy.  So seems like either business income or short term gains (with various nafka minas).

6. MS from GCs. This is the weirdest one, because it seems irrational to say that your basis in a $500 GC is only $492. However, I can get past that weirdness, especially considering that you can trade GS below face value all over ebay.  So hagah atzmecha: If I buy a Target GC for $475, and then buy $500 worth of potatoes at Target, do I have income or gains of $25? That seems like an insane position to take.  But that's where the usual theories would seem to take us.  If you have a business, I would think very hard to argue that the money you are making wasn't made. But seems nuts that you have income everytime you buy a GC below face value and then use it.  At some point it may just come down to the optics.

These are just some boich sevaras--no idea how IRS thinks of this or what law is.

Offline aygart

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #137 on: July 05, 2018, 02:49:30 PM »
Here are some sevaras I'm thinking, although again, haven't really looked into this and many here have probably thought about it more than me.

1. CB, points on generic spend, seem akin to a rebate, which means you just paid less for the potatoes you were buying. Hard to see that as taxable.

2. Same with FF miles you get for flying. You just paid less for your flight.

3. IRS Announcement 2002-18 was about business travel. Your employer pays for your flight, and you get miles. If was like scenario 2, the employer would get the miles. So this is more like your employer giving you additional compensation in miles, but IRS was mochel it.

4. Points or miles you get from deposit bank accounts, seem most like interest income. Hard to see it as anything different.

5. MS from buying groups.  If you treat it as having paid less for potatoes, like under scenario 1, then your basis in the potatoes is less, and  you had a profit when you onsold it to the buying club guy.  So seems like either business income or short term gains (with various nafka minas).

6. MS from GCs. This is the weirdest one, because it seems irrational to say that your basis in a $500 GC is only $492. However, I can get past that weirdness, especially considering that you can trade GS below face value all over ebay.  So hagah atzmecha: If I buy a Target GC for $475, and then buy $500 worth of potatoes at Target, do I have income or gains of $25? That seems like an insane position to take.  But that's where the usual theories would seem to take us.  If you have a business, I would think very hard to argue that the money you are making wasn't made. But seems nuts that you have income everytime you buy a GC below face value and then use it.  At some point it may just come down to the optics.

These are just some boich sevaras--no idea how IRS thinks of this or what law is.
I could see number five just passing the lower basis to the end product and being a cheaper price for potatoes. The question would then become how to look at cash out strategies.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #138 on: July 05, 2018, 02:56:42 PM »
These are just some boich sevaras--no idea how IRS thinks of this or what law is.
Once you get past a certain threshold (arbitrary) they look at it as you are running a business (MS/GC's). Your net/gross gains are taxable.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline aygart

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Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
« Reply #139 on: July 05, 2018, 03:06:59 PM »
Once you get past a certain threshold (arbitrary) they look at it as you are running a business (MS/GC's). Your net/gross gains are taxable.
How about the extreme couponers who are busy sending in rebates on everything they buy?
Feelings don't care about your facts