Ben Shapiro

[aygart]

BS describes him.  :)Trump is the same person from day one. I call this flip flopping.

You don't consider it fair to no longer support his candidacy after the way he behaved when he lost?

[CountValentine]

You don't consider it fair to no longer support his candidacy after the way he behaved when he lost?

That is a fair point. What also is a fair point this is the same guy even before he ran. He never respected the rule of law.

[S209]

That is a fair point. What also is a fair point this is the same guy even before he ran. He never respected the rule of law.

Is it safe to say the fact that BS has changed his support for Trump based upon the circumstances is praiseworthy not a negative? I’m sure you don’t think the die hard Trumpists who won’t waver in their support despite the mounting case against him should be praised for sticking with him.

Flip-flopping is changing your opinion when nothing changed. Rational decision making is taking new circumstances into account.

[CountValentine]

Flip-flopping is changing your opinion when nothing changed.

I agree. Trump never changed.
I offered to go item by item for the reasons BS said he would never vote for Trump. There has been silence because most of what he said was correct then and is correct now.

[S209]

I agree. Trump never changed.
I offered to go item by item for the reasons BS said he would never vote for Trump. There has been silence because most of what he said was correct then and is correct now.

Ben Shapiro has stated repeatedly why he changed his mind after 2016.

He said there were two reasons he was against voting for him in 2016; A) irreparable damage to the public discourse, and B) because of his history there was reason to believe he would not govern like a conservative. When it came to the 2020 election BS said both reasons no longer applied: A) the damage to the discourse had already unfortunately occurred, and B) he was wrong (another admirable trait, admitting you are wrong) because Trump actually governed very conservatively overall.

An obvious reason to now backtrack on Trump is the massive splintering he is causing of the party, including setting up the Rs to fail these midterms tremendously because of terribly chosen candidates.

[CountValentine]

Ben Shapiro has stated repeatedly why he changed his mind after 2016.

I understand what he said. I am not buying it. IMHO he is a slick talking salesman.

Here is the very first thing he said about never voting for Trump:
I will never vote for Donald Trump because I stand with certain principles. I stand with small government and free markets and religious freedom and personal responsibility.

Trump expanded the government
Trump put on tariffs
Trump was for religious freedoms for the ones he agreed with.
Do I really need to respond to personal responsibility?

As you can see the principals BS claims to stand for and Trump does not is true today as the day it said it.

[Baruch]

A) the damage to the discourse had already unfortunately occurred

perhaps the dumbest argument ever presented, and is an obvious twisting out of principal with a throwaway argument. It's frankly insults the intelligence of the listener. And made him unlistenable for me. Before he presented that argument I listened to his podcast fully every day.
That argument told me this guy sold out.

[avromie7]

I understand what he said. I am not buying it. IMHO he is a slick talking salesman.

Here is the very first thing he said about never voting for Trump:
I will never vote for Donald Trump because I stand with certain principles. I stand with small government and free markets and religious freedom and personal responsibility.

Trump expanded the government
Trump put on tariffs
Trump was for religious freedoms for the ones he agreed with.
Do I really need to respond to personal responsibility?

As you can see the principals BS claims to stand for and Trump does not is true today as the day it said it.

How did Trump expand government? I know he had a 3 for 1 rule, for every new rule an agency adds they must remove 3 old rules.

[CountValentine]

How did Trump expand government?

Spending is a main part of government. How much did it grow under Trump?

[aygart]

Spending is a main part of government. How much did it grow under Trump?

Wow is that a stretch on the definition. Ouch.

[CountValentine]

Wow is that a stretch on the definition. Ouch.

You want to use government employees?
Most use government spending or that is what comes up for google results.

ETA: The true size of government is nearing a record high
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2020/10/07/the-true-size-of-government-is-nearing-a-record-high/

[avromie7]

You want to use government employees?
Most use government spending or that is what comes up for google results.

ETA: The true size of government is nearing a record high
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2020/10/07/the-true-size-of-government-is-nearing-a-record-high/

Government spending is an issue, but the bigger issue is government intrusion on our lives which Trump did not expand. Trump rolled back many "rules".

[CountValentine]

Government spending is an issue, but the bigger issue is government intrusion on our lives which Trump did not expand. Trump rolled back many "rules".

He increased the size of government. It got bigger not smaller. That is just a fact. 
ETA: I believe the point you are making is about deregulation?

[Zalc]

Never vote for him.
Vote for him.
Abandoned him.

Trump is the same person from day one.

Here is the very first thing he said about never voting for Trump:
I will never vote for Donald Trump because I stand with certain principles. I stand with small government and free markets and religious freedom and personal responsibility.

In 2016 Trump seemed worse on these principals then other R candidates.
In 2020 he was better on these principals then the Democratic Party candidates.
In 2020 there are once again other people who are better than Trump on these principals. If Trump wins the R nomination for 2024, I imagine he’d call vote for Trump again and be called a flip flopper.

Trump didn’t change, the landscape did.

Edit: if the reason for not voting Trump is his personality and morals, those never changed. That’s not Ben’s reason, and while it’s nice to have a role model for a president, it seems we’re well beyond that on both sides these days.

[avromie7]

He increased the size of government. It got bigger not smaller. That is just a fact. 
ETA: I believe the point you are making is about deregulation?

Correct. Smaller government is probably not the best choice of words, limited government or more limited government would be more accurate. On that front Trump excelled, and he is definitely much better than anyone the Ds put on the ballot.

[CountValentine]

Correct. Smaller government is probably not the best choice of words, limited government or more limited government would be more accurate. On that front Trump excelled, and he is definitely much better than anyone the Ds put on the ballot.

Ok hat is fair but the principal we are discussing is smaller government not deregulation.

[CountValentine]

"That was the most demagogic, outrageous, and divisive speech I have ever seen from an American president," wrote conservative commentator Ben Shapiro. "Joe Biden essentially declared all those who oppose him and his agenda enemies of the republic. Truly shameful."

More red meat for his audience. The problem is Biden did not say any such thing. Doesn't BS know facts don't care about his feelings? 

[aygart]

"That was the most demagogic, outrageous, and divisive speech I have ever seen from an American president," wrote conservative commentator Ben Shapiro. "Joe Biden essentially declared all those who oppose him and his agenda enemies of the republic. Truly shameful."

More red meat for his audience. The problem is Biden did not say any such thing. Doesn't BS know facts don't care about his feelings? 

He defined who isn't included in the extremists. They are the ones who "work with him"

[CountValentine]

He defined who isn't included in the extremists. They are the ones who "work with him"

His feelings tell him: Joe Biden essentially declared all those who oppose him and his agenda enemies of the republic.
The fact is Biden said no such thing.

[aygart]

His feelings tell him: Joe Biden essentially declared all those who oppose him and his agenda enemies of the republic.
The fact is Biden said no such thing.

Who didn't he include?