Author Topic: Ben Shapiro  (Read 153236 times)

Offline sguitarist18

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #800 on: November 14, 2022, 02:34:05 PM »
My reading of what she said was making the point that people have the right to watch, read and discuss all kinds of things - even things that we obviously consider wrong - as evidenced by the fact that Amazon sells Mein Kampf, and we realize that's OK, no one thinks it's a good idea to ban the book.

Taking a step back, though, I do think there's a problem when supporting people who make anti-Semitic comments, and if a left-wing politician were to do the same we wouldn't be defending it.



« Last Edit: November 14, 2022, 02:56:45 PM by sguitarist18 »

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #801 on: November 15, 2022, 09:13:18 AM »
Candace has always been a nut. Unsurprised she’s having a racist coming out party.

On the free speech debate, I am bit undecided. On one hand, Mein Kampf has educational and historical value and should not be banned, but I would also like to see Amazon donating some of the profits to anti-hate orgs like the ADL. OTOH, hateful racist content with zero educational value should not be on Amazons platform at all. Customers and investors should push for Amazon to remove this type of content. And when in doubt if something is worth removing, err on the side of keeping it up.
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Offline imayid2

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #802 on: November 15, 2022, 09:35:42 AM »
On the free speech debate, I am bit undecided. On one hand, Mein Kampf has educational and historical value and should not be banned, but I would also like to see Amazon donating some of the profits to anti-hate orgs like the ADL. OTOH, hateful racist content with zero educational value should not be on Amazons platform at all. Customers and investors should push for Amazon to remove this type of content. And when in doubt if something is worth removing, err on the side of keeping it up.
If they are banning books like When Harry became Sally and allowing Mein Kampf it gets confusing what their standards are. I guess the excuse is that mk is generally studied as a historical work with a clear knowledge that the man was the epitome of evil.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #803 on: November 15, 2022, 11:10:10 AM »
If they are banning books like When Harry became Sally and allowing Mein Kampf it gets confusing what their standards are.
It is the Trump standard. What books does he have.  ;)
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #804 on: November 15, 2022, 11:48:08 AM »
I guess the excuse is that mk is generally studied as a historical work with a clear knowledge that the man was the epitome of evil.

I think I remember that at one point they only allowed a version that had an introduction written by Ave Foxman - https://www.adl.org/news/article/adolf-hitlers-mein-kampf-an-introduction

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #807 on: November 17, 2022, 10:18:43 AM »
Not sure how what he said quoted there is counter to free speech.

"I don't like chocolate ice cream."
"What happened to free speech!?!?!?"

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Offline yitzgar

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #811 on: December 14, 2022, 11:53:02 PM »
Wow

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #812 on: December 15, 2022, 12:53:50 AM »
Excellent article.

Wow
I have a newfound respect

Admittedly, I did not read the whole piece, but really, this is excellent?

Quote
The Torah’s injunctions against homosexual activity or intermarriage are perfectly logical and easily explicable; pretending otherwise is cowardice. And yet our leaders routinely wave away such injunctions as “G-d’s will” without explaining, in powerful terms, just why G-d would want such a thing. This amounts to the “chok-ificiation” of Torah – the reduction of halacha to the realm of the inexplicable, the unjustifiable will of G-d. [8]

This abandons the field of morality to the secular world, and tears away the main reason for allegiance to the eternal truths of Torah.

And all this from the guy who says about Democratic Jews that they are just "ethnic Jews". As long as you're on his side politically, you're Jewish enough, otherwise you ain't Jewish at all.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #813 on: December 15, 2022, 01:35:13 AM »
https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/modern-orthodoxys-moral-failure/2022/12/12/

The fact that his single example is MO’s stance on the LGBTQ+ issue is proof positive that his issue is with how his perception of their stance differs from what he’d prefer. The rest is just framing it in a objective moral standard to make BS appear to be standing up for what’s right and the MO community compromising.
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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #814 on: December 15, 2022, 07:22:36 AM »
Admittedly, I did not read the whole piece, but really, this is excellent?
Yes!
What don’t you like about this paragraph?

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #815 on: December 15, 2022, 07:36:53 AM »
Yes!
What don’t you like about this paragraph?
Is his entire argument on the failings on MO only predicated on their opinion of homosexuality?

Because then the article could have just pinpointed that instead of the other 20 paragraphs of framing.

Especially considering it is a republican vs democrat issue in the US and that us the real reason for the 20 paragraphs framing the issue. Because if he just talked about the issue alone no-one would talk about this piece other than it's a typical right wing op-ed.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #816 on: December 15, 2022, 07:42:11 AM »
Is his entire argument on the failings on MO only predicated on their opinion of homosexuality?

Because then the article could have just pinpointed that instead of the other 20 paragraphs of framing.

Especially considering it is a republican vs democrat issue in the US and that us the real reason for the 20 paragraphs framing the issue. Because if he just talked about the issue alone no-one would talk about this piece other than it's a typical right wing op-ed.

It’s typical frum drivel of “not just is my opinion correct but I’m also in the right morally, Hashem is on my side of this issue”. Keep g-d out of this and just state your opinion as what it is, your personal opinion.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #817 on: December 15, 2022, 07:45:11 AM »
Yes!
What don’t you like about this paragraph?

The basis of our performance of mitzvos is our being able to rationalize them? The "chokification" of mitzvos is a *good* thing. We are super rational about Torah and mitzvos not rational. We refrain from stealing because G-d said so, not because it makes sense. Otherwise why do we keep shatnez?

You, particularly, have gone on ad nauseum in various ways speaking about morality being G-d's morality, not our understanding of it. Perhaps not in those words, but that is the underlying theme of your positions in all the political threads. This runs counter to that entirely. You make the very same mistake Ben is accusing others of. Because he is championing "values" you agree with, you're disregarding that he threw G-d out to get there.

Like @AsherO was saying, his obsession with LGBTQ issues is a huge tell, as is lumping together the entire spectrum of modern Orthodoxy, which spans from being indistinguishable from Yeshivish to being indistinguishable from "frum" Conservative.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #818 on: December 15, 2022, 08:20:36 AM »
Like @AsherO was saying, his obsession with LGBTQ issues is a huge tell, as is lumping together the entire spectrum of modern Orthodoxy, which spans from being indistinguishable from Yeshivish to being indistinguishable from "frum" Conservative.

He divides the MO take into three artificial buckets, and labels them by what he sees as the shortcoming in their response to the issue at hand. A divide-and-conquer approach that is intellectually dishonest and doesn’t actually hold water.
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Ben Shapiro
« Reply #819 on: December 15, 2022, 08:57:15 AM »
And all this from the guy who says about Democratic Jews that they are just "ethnic Jews". As long as you're on his side politically, you're Jewish enough, otherwise you ain't Jewish at all.

This is a distortion of what he says. He says that in the context of values and political views, most non-religious Jews are not getting their values from Judaism, and therefore cannot be said to be representing the "Jewish perspective" on whatever issue it is.

The fact that his single example is MO’s stance on the LGBTQ+ issue is proof positive that his issue is with how his perception of their stance differs from what he’d prefer. The rest is just framing it in a objective moral standard to make BS appear to be standing up for what’s right and the MO community compromising.
Is his entire argument on the failings on MO only predicated on their opinion of homosexuality?

He is writing a response to an issue that is now at the forefront. I'm not sure why you are surprised that a political commentator is commenting on how MO is dealing with a political issue. I don't want to hear Ben Shapiro's opinion on education in the MO world. I want to hear (and he was probably asked to write) about his area of expertise.

It’s typical frum drivel of “not just is my opinion correct but I’m also in the right morally, Hashem is on my side of this issue”. Keep g-d out of this and just state your opinion as what it is, your personal opinion.

Are you suggesting that Torah does not have anything to say about this issue?

Like @AsherO was saying, his obsession with LGBTQ issues is a huge tell

Do you think the Jewish Press asked him for his opinion on Modern Orthodoxy in general? Or did they ask him to write about MO's response to the LGBT issue?

as is lumping together the entire spectrum of modern Orthodoxy, which spans from being indistinguishable from Yeshivish to being indistinguishable from "frum" Conservative.

All of those groups have something in common (which is why they are all called MO...) They are all based on a specific philosophy, even if they have differed in the application of it. It makes sense to talk about all the ways MO is dealing with the issue.

He divides the MO take into three artificial buckets, and labels them by what he sees as the shortcoming in their response to the issue at hand. A divide-and-conquer approach that is intellectually dishonest and doesn’t actually hold water.

He divides MO by their response to the issue that he is writing about.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:03:57 AM by zh cohen »