Author Topic: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan (and what happened in Antarctica)  (Read 15018 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2018, 01:33:07 PM »
I'd have very mixed feelings.

There are literally thousands of hours of logistical work that went into organizing our small kosher cruise. It would seem to be unfair if someone came along and took advantage of a minyan without helping to defray the cost of making that minyan on a boat. A minyan is a small part of the cost of a kosher program, but it's part of the package and getting a torah onboard and obtaining space onboard is no small feat.

OTOH how do you say no to a fellow Jew wanting to daven with a minyan?

At any rate, this happens at Pesach programs all the time where people either sneak in for minyanim, lectures, and entertainment or they ask if they can attend without being part of the program. I think it reflects poorly on someone who would put himself in that situation.
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Offline Friars500

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2018, 01:48:36 PM »
Can you elaborate on that last statement? To me there is no excuse for sneaking in for a lecture, food, entertainment and the similar and I understand ths question of somebody is paying for the minyan (Kosherica pays for the room, pesach program is paying for the hotel, etc.) but what do you mean putting yourself in this situation?

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2018, 01:54:38 PM »
I think he means that there is no excuse for gaming the system by purposely going on cruises that you know have a kosher program and going on your own. But if you happen to be on a cruise and there happens to be a minyan then he doesn't see why they shouldn't let you join.

Offline Dan

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2018, 01:58:31 PM »
Can you elaborate on that last statement? To me there is no excuse for sneaking in for a lecture, food, entertainment and the similar and I understand ths question of somebody is paying for the minyan (Kosherica pays for the room, pesach program is paying for the hotel, etc.) but what do you mean putting yourself in this situation?
If you rent a house for Pesach in Orlando next to a community rented out by a program that has a dedicated house for a minyan for that program with the intention of using that as a minyan.
If you stay in the Fairmont Whistler for Pesach with the intention of buying your own catered food and sneaking into the Four Seasons program for a minyan.
If you buy a cabin on a boat specifically because someone else spent thousands of hours creating a business that offers a minyan for their customers.

You may think you're being a good Jew by sneaking in and davening in said minyan, but I'd posit that you are not. These are businesses offering a minyan to meet their paying clients needs, not community shuls. You are gaming the system at another Jew's expense.
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Offline Friars500

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2018, 02:13:07 PM »
I get that but I have also seen Pesach programs and similar events advertising (or just scheduling) minyanim and different times to cater to early risers, late risers, people who care about davening at specific zmanim and people who want to daven maariv before dinner, people who are coming back from excursions late and everything in between. Many times these minyanim need outsiders, not to mention unscheduled minyanim for participants. It works both ways.  This is what makes it hard. To me since, the minyan, while a service, is very important to programs to offer so people don't nix the program, I would hope they would welcome people, even though these people are taking advantage. My strong guess is most people taking advantage would not be willing to pay the extra cost for Kosherica or for the pesach program so they are not really losing and I can't imagine anyone who is willing to pay for the program saying that they weren't because they can get minyan for free anyway. The far vast majority of people paying is for the gourmet food and Jewish entertainment.

Offline Something Fishy

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2018, 02:17:07 PM »
The far vast majority of people paying is for the gourmet food and Jewish entertainment.

This is completely irrelevant.
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Offline Friars500

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2018, 02:20:21 PM »
By itself it would be - but I don't think in conjunction with everything else. 

Also, L'halacha, I don't know how this scenario fits with zeh neheneh v'zeh lo chosur.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2018, 02:25:00 PM »
By itself it would be - but I don't think in conjunction with everything else. 

Also, L'halacha, I don't know how this scenario fits with zeh neheneh v'zeh lo chosur.
Seriously? Here it's karka d'avid l'meigar. Debate whether it's a gavra d'avid l'meigar, but I'd say it is, as he's currently being meigar, just not from the Jewish program
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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2018, 02:52:47 PM »
In no way do I mean to minimize the cost and expense to Kosherica.  I just find this not so cut and dry.

As to your avid l'meigar, I don't think an individual person normally rents a space to daven.  Even when making minyanim, people just get ten people together wherever they can (preferably a private place - but not necessarily) and daven.  How many times do people make a minyan on chol hamoed at ball games, amusement parks, museums - all places where you paid an entrance fee.  People congregate and attractions try to accommodate if it doesn't get in the way.  Just curious, as women don't have the chiyuv for minyan, does your analysis change if a female would like to join in?

EDIT - in any event, I really didn't mean to turn this into a halachik conversation.  I think this is more a moral conversation.

Not that it resolves aything but I seem to recall that during yeshiva week, several cruise lines, because of the vast amount of frum people decided to dedicate a dining room for the kosher requests and for davening just because it was simpler.  I would find it interesting how the ships would deal with a large number of kosher guests on a boat that also has a Kosherica cruise.....

Offline ual902

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2018, 10:54:01 PM »
Kosherica pays the cruise for a designated room for davening and other social events, there may or may not be a security guard at the door checking for wrist bands, also kosherica staff may not approach you but they can send the ship security.

Offline how

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2018, 11:51:37 PM »
I wonder how many people are planning on joining the minyan on the Antarctica cruise...

Just remember to bring along a extra bencher for them

Offline justaregularguy

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2018, 12:02:01 AM »
I wonder how many people are planning on joining the minyan on the Antarctica cruise...

Just remember to bring along a extra bencher for them
or donít  ;)
nothings impossible- the word itself says Im possible

Offline how

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2018, 12:08:34 AM »
or donít  ;)
or they can raffle them off....

Sorry couldn't resist :)

Offline Something Fishy

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2018, 12:15:16 AM »
I wonder how many people are planning on joining the minyan on the Antarctica cruise...

You'd be surprised. We've had people try.
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Offline how

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2018, 12:16:29 AM »
You'd be surprised. We've had people try.
youíll be surprised. When you get there  ;D

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2018, 06:47:52 AM »
Does anyone have experience being on a cruise that Kosherica is on, but booking it on your own and eating the ship's kosher food options?
I wanted to know if Kosherica is okay with joining their minyan or do they have a problem with that.
My parents were on a boat that happened to have a kosherica group. They allowed my dad attend shabbos morning davening but he could tell the manager wasn't happy about it.

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2018, 11:55:32 AM »
Years ago I worked on a couple of Kosherica cruises. For some services (including all shabbos services and whenever there was food/entertainment), a minyan was no problem, but for some of the mid-week minyanim when the ship was docked at a port of call, kosherica customers saying kadish were very grateful for a few non-Kosherica guests who helped make the minyan.

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2018, 12:03:25 PM »
Years ago I worked on a couple of Kosherica cruises. For some services (including all shabbos services and whenever there was food/entertainment), a minyan was no problem, but for some of the mid-week minyanim when the ship was docked at a port of call, kosherica customers saying kadish were very grateful for a few non-Kosherica guests who helped make the minyan.
they should have made Kosherica pay them for using them to complete the minyan

Offline avromie7

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2018, 12:18:26 PM »
You'd be surprised. We've had people try.
Would you allow someone to join your minyan?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline elit

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2018, 02:19:15 PM »
that seems cruel to not allow Jews to pray in a minyan.
was going to respond exactly what Dan said
IMO its completely wrong. if its pure by accident that u had no idea there was Kosherica on board then maybe... but I certainly would expect Kosherica to stick to their policy and only allow customers or you would have many people claiming they had no idea... Pesach programs deal with this all the time and its straight up stealing
If you rent a house for Pesach in Orlando next to a community rented out by a program that has a dedicated house for a minyan for that program with the intention of using that as a minyan.
If you stay in the Fairmont Whistler for Pesach with the intention of buying your own catered food and sneaking into the Four Seasons program for a minyan.
If you buy a cabin on a boat specifically because someone else spent thousands of hours creating a business that offers a minyan for their customers.

You may think you're being a good Jew by sneaking in and davening in said minyan, but I'd posit that you are not. These are businesses offering a minyan to meet their paying clients needs, not community shuls. You are gaming the system at another Jew's expense.