Author Topic: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos  (Read 4380 times)

Offline Yonah

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 644
  • Total likes: 387
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« on: November 09, 2018, 02:02:20 PM »
I was reading this other thread about the Ring Camera and shabbos, and it spurred me to thinking about Shabbos and Security in a more general sense. In light of what happened in Pittsburgh, I know that this is on the forefront of everyone's mind in the Jewish World, I also know that these are complex issues and need to be addressed with one's LOR for their own individual piskei halacha. However, we're on the Internet, and I'd love to hear people's opinions, especially from those who may no more than I do when it comes to technology, halacha or both.

the original thread is here: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=97433.0

So here are my questions:

I imagine, that because many shuls have them, there is a source for a heter for security cameras on the perimeter of the shul. I would also imagine that all of these cameras are recording on Shabbos - does anyone know the source for this? Is it Pikuach Nefesh? Machmas Chisaron Kis (in the case of vandals?)

If a shul has a heter for security cameras, why not a private home? Is it because the threat is greater? (i.e. more visible and more people)

People have tossed the idea of the video falling under the category of 'D'Lo Nicha Lei' - i.e. it records on Shabbos, but you don't care about using the video. Would that only apply to a non-backed up video?

As a side note to 'D'Lo' Nicha Lei, would that also apply in this situation - someone has a mechanical/electronic hybrid lock on their front door. On shabbos they use the key, and the lock logs that the door was opened closed, but unless you check the logs, the user of the key isn't aware that this is happening. How would that fall under shabbos?

... and finally, given Pittsburgh, do you think that Rabbonim will now start being more meikil on these type of things because the threat level of pikuach nefesh has increased?

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17264
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2018, 02:06:33 PM »
A camera that's always recording is different than something that records motion.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Definitions

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2018
  • Posts: 1791
  • Total likes: 480
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2018, 03:19:48 PM »

... and finally, given Pittsburgh, do you think that Rabbonim will now start being more meikil on these type of things because the threat level of pikuach nefesh has increased?
How would security cameras help for a shooting or other types of brazen violent attacks?
My Tapatalk notifications don't always work.

Offline grodnoking

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 5931
  • Total likes: 767
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 17
    • View Profile
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2018, 01:33:12 PM »
How would security cameras help for a shooting or other types of brazen violent attacks?
It wouldn't help for someone who does not plan on leaving alive, but would help for deterring someone who wants to "get away with it".
I'm not who you think I am.

Offline Yonah

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 644
  • Total likes: 387
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2018, 08:37:06 AM »
How would security cameras help for a shooting or other types of brazen violent attacks?

A few ways:
- Many attacks are planned - where the attacker will try to test how easy it is to enter the shul.
- If there is someone watching the cameras, they may be able to detect a person trying to enter and lock down the shul before it happens - this obviously requires a security guard watching the shul.

That being said, there are also instances of vandalism and attempted break-ins to shuls -> such as some of the incidents in williamsburg. Cameras both act as a deterrent and as a means of catching the perpetrators.

Offline Yonah

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 644
  • Total likes: 387
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2018, 08:44:59 AM »
A camera that's always recording is different than something that records motion.

Dan I thought about this a bit over shabbos. AFAIK, there are essentially three kinds of these cameras:
- One that's continuously on and recording - the example would be commercial security cams; many of these have x number of days of storage.
- One where the camera is completely off until motion is detected, and then turns on and records when it detects motion - i.e. the Blinq cameras work exactly like this
- One where the camera is always on, but only records when it detects motion or people - like the Amazon Cloud cam.

From a halachic perspective, is there any difference between 2 and 3? IMHO, in #2, your motion is turning the camera on, where in 3, you motion itself isn't doing anything, but rather when some service sees a change in the picture it decides to capture it.

I also spoke with someone else about this, and he introduced me to the concept of Psik Raisha D'lo Neicha Lei. In my simple understanding, this allows individuals to walk by someone else's camera on shabbos, but is more problematic for the owner of the camera.

If you own the camera, at any point on shabbos, I can suggest that you don't care about the video - until something happens on shabbos and you retroactively want to check it.

Offline yoohoo

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2015
  • Posts: 1347
  • Total likes: 182
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: United States
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2018, 08:54:06 AM »
There is a Headlines show by David Lichtenstein on this topic which is very interesting. It’s a combination of a few points for which I was told it’s permissible.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17264
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2018, 09:06:10 AM »
Permissable to own?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yoohoo

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2015
  • Posts: 1347
  • Total likes: 182
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: United States
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2018, 11:26:25 AM »
Permissable to own?
yes. There was no  differentiation in owning or not in regards to psik raisha. It had to do with multiple dirabanans combined with the psik raisha...some of the Drabanans iirc was that recording is considered a non permanent ksiva. Walking I front of it yourself or anyone who is harmless is lo nicha lei...

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17264
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2018, 11:32:45 AM »
yes. There was no  differentiation in owning or not in regards to psik raisha. It had to do with multiple dirabanans combined with the psik raisha...some of the Drabanans iirc was that recording is considered a non permanent ksiva. Walking I front of it yourself or anyone who is harmless is lo nicha lei...
Meh. The fact that you own and have it there proves ipso facto that it is Neicha Lei.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yoohoo

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2015
  • Posts: 1347
  • Total likes: 182
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: United States
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2018, 12:34:01 PM »
Meh. The fact that you own and have it there proves ipso facto that it is Neicha Lei.
completely disagree. I have zero interest in recordings of who harmless pro walking by my house  and if there was an option to turn off completely I most definitely would.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17264
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2018, 12:41:21 PM »
completely disagree. I have zero interest in recordings of who harmless pro walking by my house  and if there was an option to turn off completely I most definitely would.
If you had no interest you wouldn't have it or you would never use motion zones.

And there are options. Take out the battery, turn off motion zones, or install a shunt switch if you can hardwire.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yoohoo

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2015
  • Posts: 1347
  • Total likes: 182
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: United States
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2018, 12:49:28 PM »
If you had no interest you wouldn't have it or you would never use motion zones.

And there are options. Take out the battery, turn off motion zones, or install a shunt switch if you can hardwire.
or ask your rabbi and follow what he suggests

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17264
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2018, 12:50:23 PM »
or ask your rabbi and follow what he suggests
I did and am very surprised at the ways suggested here to justify otherwise.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yoohoo

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2015
  • Posts: 1347
  • Total likes: 182
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: United States
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2018, 12:57:41 PM »
I did and am very surprised at the ways suggested here to justify otherwise.
sent you PM

Offline stooges44

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2017
  • Posts: 6567
  • Total likes: 2764
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 269
    • View Profile
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2018, 12:58:27 PM »
sent you PM

No fair, others are interested in this also
If it's not free shipping it's not worth it.

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Diamond Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 68893
  • Total likes: 17264
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA GS, AA EXP, DL Dirt, Hyatt Glob, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, DD Diamond, Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2018, 01:02:17 PM »
No fair, others are interested in this also
Was just contact info for his Rabbi. I already asked mine.
Just make sure your Rabbi knows the facts about what exactly the device does and the steps you could take so that it does not.

I just don't see how this is different than a motion activated light that a Jew should not own and use on Shabbos. The fact that you bought it and have it operating proves that it is neicha lei. And it's not like it's impossible to turn off, you just don't want to spend the 30 seconds weekly to do so.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline thaber

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 3915
  • Total likes: 467
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2018, 01:16:03 PM »
completely disagree. I have zero interest in recordings of who harmless pro walking by my house  and if there was an option to turn off completely I most definitely would.
you have interest in recording everyone who goes by, in case one of them proves to be harmful. that's called niche lei.
I think I'm going to start a master thread of Smart homes on Shabbos. There's a lot to discuss.

Offline yoohoo

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2015
  • Posts: 1347
  • Total likes: 182
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: United States
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2018, 01:17:17 PM »
you have interest in recording everyone who goes by, in case one of them proves to be harmful. that's called niche lei.
I think I'm going to start a master thread of Smart homes on Shabbos. There's a lot to discuss.
it is neicha lei but it’s not triggered by you

Also pretty sure there is a thread already

https://s120.podbean.com/pb/afc7001a2b67a8b3864e2d61786980cf/5be9c33b/data2/fs31/769564/uploads/show_8_Motion-Detectors-_-Cameras-on-Shabbos.pdf?pbss=de9eed0c-8928-5cd4-9cf2-bfcf59025da2

Offline yoohoo

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2015
  • Posts: 1347
  • Total likes: 182
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
  • Location: United States
Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2018, 01:19:41 PM »
Was just contact info for his Rabbi. I already asked mine.
Just make sure your Rabbi knows the facts about what exactly the device does and the steps you could take so that it does not.

I just don't see how this is different than a motion activated light that a Jew should not own and use on Shabbos. The fact that you bought it and have it operating proves that it is neicha lei. And it's not like it's impossible to turn off, you just don't want to spend the 30 seconds weekly to do so.
clarification. He’s not my Rabbi. My rabbi referred me to him since he’s well knowledged on the topic