Author Topic: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos  (Read 4317 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2018, 01:24:03 PM »
it is neicha lei but it’s not triggered by you

Also pretty sure there is a thread already

https://s120.podbean.com/pb/afc7001a2b67a8b3864e2d61786980cf/5be9c33b/data2/fs31/769564/uploads/show_8_Motion-Detectors-_-Cameras-on-Shabbos.pdf?pbss=de9eed0c-8928-5cd4-9cf2-bfcf59025da2
What does that mean? You own it and are causing a psik reisha dneicha lei.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline yoohoo

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2018, 01:34:41 PM »
Iinm psik raisha requires an action. Your triggering of your own camera is lo nicha

Offline lubaby

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2018, 01:36:44 PM »

Offline thaber

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2018, 03:15:34 PM »
Tribe Tech Review
I thought that was a commercial. Maybe we can rename / merge?

Offline Yonah

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2018, 03:42:26 PM »
What does that mean? You own it and are causing a psik reisha dneicha lei.

When does neicha lei begin? Does it begin when I leave it on over shabbos with the idea that I don't want it until a bad person shows up. Or does it begin after shabbos, when I realized that a bad person shows up and might be on my video recording?


Offline Yonah

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2018, 03:46:06 PM »
Iinm psik raisha requires an action. Your triggering of your own camera is lo nicha

Going back to my previous question - in this case, would it make a difference if the motion detection was only to record, and the camera was running the whole time? Similar to what dan pointed out above, if the camera was off until motion was detected, I could see that its like a motion sensing light switch.

but if the camera is always on and recording is started/stopped by pattern detection in the video stream should be treated differently. In the former your entrance turns somethng on. In the latter, your entrance doesn't change anything - the video is already running. the only difference is a 3 process is now detecting a pattern change and deciding to record.

Offline how

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2018, 10:18:30 PM »
Going back to my previous question - in this case, would it make a difference if the motion detection was only to record, and the camera was running the whole time? Similar to what dan pointed out above, if the camera was off until motion was detected, I could see that its like a motion sensing light switch.

but if the camera is always on and recording is started/stopped by pattern detection in the video stream should be treated differently. In the former your entrance turns somethng on. In the latter, your entrance doesn't change anything - the video is already running. the only difference is a 3 process is now detecting a pattern change and deciding to record.
I don't think so. The issue is kosev. When you walk by the camera records you.

In general your very much generalizing the way systems work. There are many different ways to program how commercial security cameras work but they are essentially no different than a dvr that many people have at home.

Offline how

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2018, 10:20:58 PM »
If I could figure out a way to have the camera shut off at one random time every day, then even if you held that walking by as a psik reisha it would be ok to walk by because maybe the cameras are off now.


Offline how

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2018, 10:22:27 PM »
I was reading this other thread about the Ring Camera and shabbos, and it spurred me to thinking about Shabbos and Security in a more general sense. In light of what happened in Pittsburgh, I know that this is on the forefront of everyone's mind in the Jewish World, I also know that these are complex issues and need to be addressed with one's LOR for their own individual piskei halacha. However, we're on the Internet, and I'd love to hear people's opinions, especially from those who may no more than I do when it comes to technology, halacha or both.

the original thread is here: https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=97433.0

So here are my questions:

I imagine, that because many shuls have them, there is a source for a heter for security cameras on the perimeter of the shul. I would also imagine that all of these cameras are recording on Shabbos - does anyone know the source for this? Is it Pikuach Nefesh? Machmas Chisaron Kis (in the case of vandals?)

If a shul has a heter for security cameras, why not a private home? Is it because the threat is greater? (i.e. more visible and more people)

People have tossed the idea of the video falling under the category of 'D'Lo Nicha Lei' - i.e. it records on Shabbos, but you don't care about using the video. Would that only apply to a non-backed up video?

As a side note to 'D'Lo' Nicha Lei, would that also apply in this situation - someone has a mechanical/electronic hybrid lock on their front door. On shabbos they use the key, and the lock logs that the door was opened closed, but unless you check the logs, the user of the key isn't aware that this is happening. How would that fall under shabbos?

... and finally, given Pittsburgh, do you think that Rabbonim will now start being more meikil on these type of things because the threat level of pikuach nefesh has increased?
many many  shuls  have cameras that are recording on shabbos.

Offline yoohoo

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2018, 09:27:32 AM »
many many  shuls  have cameras that are recording on shabbos.
youre not following. The discussion is about cameras that record on motion not always recording

Offline Yonah

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2018, 11:22:05 AM »
I don't think so. The issue is kosev. When you walk by the camera records you.

In general your very much generalizing the way systems work. There are many different ways to program how commercial security cameras work but they are essentially no different than a dvr that many people have at home.

If the true issue is kosev, then it wouldn't make a difference if the camera was always on or not, because no matter what causes it to record, you are being recorded in it.

Offline Yonah

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2018, 11:26:19 AM »
youre not following. The discussion is about cameras that record on motion not always recording

As the OP, my original intent for my poorly worded question was really:

"If shuls have a heter to use security cameras, could that same heter be applied to cameras in a home, or is it easier to give a heter for the tzibbur"

My two secondary questions, that no one has seemed to address:
"Is there a difference between a camera that's constantly recording everything, vs a camera that is always on, but only records when it detects motion or people in its stream?"

"Can something that is D'Lo neicha lei, become retroactive. the example being, I leave my cameras on all the time and don't care about the video from shabbos, until some tries to damage my property or break in on shabbos".

Offline how

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2018, 11:32:05 AM »
If the true issue is kosev, then it wouldn't make a difference if the camera was always on or not, because no matter what causes it to record, you are being recorded in it.
If it's set to motion the DVR actually lights up when it starts recording

Offline Yonah

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2018, 03:20:45 PM »
If it's set to motion the DVR actually lights up when it starts recording

:) I was talking about something like an Amazon Cloud cam. The camera is on, but only records when motion is detected. The detection of motion in this case is not by a sensor on the camera, but rather, by an app that's viewing the camera feed and noticing object movement between each frame. IOW - your motion isn't triggering anything, but your presence in the constant video feed is being observed and causing something else to write.

Offline yoohoo

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2018, 08:13:58 PM »
Was just contact info for his Rabbi. I already asked mine.
Just make sure your Rabbi knows the facts about what exactly the device does and the steps you could take so that it does not.

I just don't see how this is different than a motion activated light that a Jew should not own and use on Shabbos. The fact that you bought it and have it operating proves that it is neicha lei. And it's not like it's impossible to turn off, you just don't want to spend the 30 seconds weekly to do so.
well your rabbi allowed you to be in Hawaii for shabbos and mine said no, had to change my whole trip  ;)

Offline EJB

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2018, 09:21:29 PM »
I thought the argument was:

Koseiv midrabanan and lo nicha lei because: if you trigger the motion you don't care for the recording. If an intruder triggers the motion you didn't cause the recording.

Offline thaber

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2018, 09:29:40 PM »
As the OP, my original intent for my poorly worded question was really:

"If shuls have a heter to use security cameras, could that same heter be applied to cameras in a home, or is it easier to give a heter for the tzibbur"

My two secondary questions, that no one has seemed to address:
"Is there a difference between a camera that's constantly recording everything, vs a camera that is always on, but only records when it detects motion or people in its stream?"

"Can something that is D'Lo neicha lei, become retroactive. the example being, I leave my cameras on all the time and don't care about the video from shabbos, until some tries to damage my property or break in on shabbos".
Yes, yes and questionable, but difficult to justify.

Offline thaber

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2018, 09:30:50 PM »
:) I was talking about something like an Amazon Cloud cam. The camera is on, but only records when motion is detected. The detection of motion in this case is not by a sensor on the camera, but rather, by an app that's viewing the camera feed and noticing object movement between each frame. IOW - your motion isn't triggering anything, but your presence in the constant video feed is being observed and causing something else to write.
Most poskim would not consider this a grama. Something like changing temp with shabbos mode on Yom tov

Offline how

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2018, 10:10:39 PM »
I thought the argument was:

Koseiv midrabanan and lo nicha lei because: if you trigger the motion you don't care for the recording. If an intruder triggers the motion you didn't cause the recording.
thats one argument if you assume it’s a melacha in the first place

Offline Buruch

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Re: Security Cameras and Access logging on Shabbos
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2018, 04:18:49 AM »
While I agree with the reasoning that the camera recording you is lo nicha lei, If it's psik reisha, who cares if it's nicha lei or lo nicha lei? Lo nicha lei is assur midrabannan.