Author Topic: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again  (Read 39856 times)

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #160 on: November 18, 2018, 07:00:16 PM »
It's in the post.
I see now. I skimmed through the first half because I already read it...
Ironically I went to YouTube to see if it's there, and I'm listening to it now on Dansdeals YouTube page ;)
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Offline Jo 08701

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #161 on: November 18, 2018, 07:03:32 PM »
I am not a Rav and I can't pasken.
But I do have a question which i wonna understand.

There is an halacha about traveling on a boat shabbos and when to embark and what to do if it's arriving on shabbos.
Now,  you can argue that a plane is similar to a boat, since there is no extra work done per passenger,  and that that the pilot is a Jew,  it's definitely not a de'orisa since he is anyway mechalel shabbos for himself,  and I can argue that it's even less problematic then using electric in Israel for shabbos as the workers are doing it for the Jewish people,  but flying a plane is the same work as for 1 person as for 300 people.
Now if someone is on a plane which was scheduled to arrive 3 hours before shabbos, you can argue it's equivalent as embarking on a ship on Wednesday 2000 years ago,  which was clearly allowed.
It would be much easier and more cost effective for elal to have a plane in such a situation as this week to land in Israel and park by the gate and let the passengers spend the shabbos on the plane,  as leaving the plane will be a problem with Techum.
They can even have a rav and food brought from the airport since for someone who is erev shabbos at the airport is allowed to enter the plane.
Again this is in case of emergency.
Again I am not a Rav,  just for curiosity it's interesting having the discussion and maybe some Talmud chacham can contribute to it.

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #162 on: November 18, 2018, 07:05:17 PM »
Any info on this pilot? Many pilots would take any opportunity to fly the queen...;)
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #164 on: November 18, 2018, 07:30:10 PM »
I am not a Rav and I can't pasken.
But I do have a question which i wonna understand.

There is an halacha about traveling on a boat shabbos and when to embark and what to do if it's arriving on shabbos.
Now,  you can argue that a plane is similar to a boat, since there is no extra work done per passenger,  and that that the pilot is a Jew,  it's definitely not a de'orisa since he is anyway mechalel shabbos for himself,  and I can argue that it's even less problematic then using electric in Israel for shabbos as the workers are doing it for the Jewish people,  but flying a plane is the same work as for 1 person as for 300 people.
Now if someone is on a plane which was scheduled to arrive 3 hours before shabbos, you can argue it's equivalent as embarking on a ship on Wednesday 2000 years ago,  which was clearly allowed.
It would be much easier and more cost effective for elal to have a plane in such a situation as this week to land in Israel and park by the gate and let the passengers spend the shabbos on the plane,  as leaving the plane will be a problem with Techum.
They can even have a rav and food brought from the airport since for someone who is erev shabbos at the airport is allowed to enter the plane.
Again this is in case of emergency.
Again I am not a Rav,  just for curiosity it's interesting having the discussion and maybe some Talmud chacham can contribute to it.
All true if the pilot and majority of the passengers hadnít been Jewish. Now that they are, you cannot allow a Jew (or non Jew, if most passengers are Jewish) to do a melacha for you or enjoy it after he did it, even if he was doing it anyway.
Iím not a rav either, but had the pilot flown into shabbos, there may be a problem leaving the airport till Sunday afternoon (כדי שיעשו) in order not to benefit from the חילול שבת. (Besides the fact that ElAl canít fly on shabbos even if they wanted to, due to a signed contract with a very large fine if they break it)
There actually was a case where r moshe ZtĒl allowed someone to fly on a non Jewish airline arriving on shabbos and stay in the airport till after shabbos. (Was for a חולה but not פיקוח נפש.)

Offline elya

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #165 on: November 18, 2018, 08:00:51 PM »
Wow. Source?
I just verified with Rabbi Derli himself, this is 100% accurate. He has taken upon himself to raise the full amount needed for the Mikva.

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #166 on: November 18, 2018, 08:03:14 PM »
Who do you think? Maybe you need to buy your own bridges.

Well, either the pilot or Corp made the decision. Does it matter who exactly? No. The law of God was Broken. The law of Israel was broken. A group of 70+ passengers representing 15% of Israeli society was thoroughly besmirched in the Israeli and Global media. But CM, you came today to buy some bridges.

CM, I have no idea who you are or what your background is. I can only surmise that you are Jewish and was/is observant to some level.

We Chareidim do not impose the Torah on anyone in Israel or the diaspora. If a Jew decides to turn on his TV at home on Shabbos, then we can only ache, but that is between him and the Ribbono Shel Olam.

But, as inscribed in the laws of the democratically elected secular state, the Shabbos is a national day of rest. The elected government of the people has decided that the airline of the flag must keep this day of rest in a manner which appeases the chief rabbis and the religious courts.

(How can Israeli society expect the chareidim to heed the yet-unwritten-IDF-draft-law, while they are silent about ElAl breaking the law?)

CM, many American Jews can trace back 2-3-4 generations to the grandparent on the Lower East Side who was fired every Monday for not desecrating the holy Shabbos. Many recount annually at the Seder Table the story of a patriarch or matriarch who managed to keep one Shabbos or more during the harsh years of Hitlers Ghettos or Stalins Gulag. Many DDF'ers have spent years and even lifetimes handing out Shabbos Candles and making Kiddush in old age homes, hospitals and the countless Chabad houses that dot the globe. Shabbos, at least to 95% of the readers of these forums, is the single most important aspect of our lives.

Does it not bother you, deep down, CM, that the only country in the world today which does not respect the holy Shabbos is the "Jewish" state of Israel?

Does it not bother you, deep down, CM, that the only group opposed to the Shabbos today are our fellow (secular) Jews drinking Kool-Aid and buying bridges?

Did you have an ancestor who cared about the holy Shabbos? Who sacrificed something for it?

We don't ask for anything from the Jew haters in our midst. Go and transgress 612 of God's commandments, and do so in your own conscience. But never, for no reason, should you trample the holy Shabbos in public, the most recognizable bond between Jew and his creator.

Offline Jo 08701

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #167 on: November 18, 2018, 08:14:09 PM »
All true if the pilot and majority of the passengers hadnít been Jewish. Now that they are, you cannot allow a Jew (or non Jew, if most passengers are Jewish) to do a melacha for you or enjoy it after he did it, even if he was doing it anyway.
Iím not a rav either, but had the pilot flown into shabbos, there may be a problem leaving the airport till Sunday afternoon (כדי שיעשו) in order not to benefit from the חילול שבת. (Besides the fact that ElAl canít fly on shabbos even if they wanted to, due to a signed contract with a very large fine if they break it)
There actually was a case where r moshe ZtĒl allowed someone to fly on a non Jewish airline arriving on shabbos and stay in the airport till after shabbos. (Was for a חולה but not פיקוח נפש.)
I guess waiting on the plane is probably easier halachically than waiting in the airport.  Regarding בכדי שיעשו, I think they would only had to wait whatever they flew in shabbos which is probably just an hour.
You can argue here that the pilot is a mechalel shabbos for himself, as he will anyway do it. Why are a lot of people in Israel not so makpid on the use of electric on shabbos which I think it is more chilul shabbos involved and done more frequently as a one time emergency.
I am quite positive that whatever elal will have to pay for the fine it's still a fraction of what it cost them the past week.
As you quoted Reb Moshe, was that a לכתחילה לצורך חולה meaning the person knew before reserving that he will arrive on shabbos but due to צורך חולה it was OK or was it a combination delay and a צורך חולה?
Again I am not a Rav. Also we are not talking here לכתחילה as it would be costly for elal to have to prepare food and other logistics through shabbos, plus they won't be able to prepare the aircraft for the moitzai shabbos flight and it will have to be delayed for a few hours.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 08:21:26 PM by Jo 08701 »

Offline elya

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #168 on: November 18, 2018, 08:14:17 PM »
I just verified with Rabbi Derli himself, this is 100% accurate. He has taken upon himself to raise the full amount needed for the Mikva.
To be more precise: He has taken upon himself to raise the "missing" funds, as many that were there for that Shabbos donated generously.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #169 on: November 18, 2018, 08:14:59 PM »
CM, I have no idea who you are or what your background is. I can only surmise that you are Jewish and was/is observant to some level.
Take a deep breath. First I am Catholic. Second I am in no way shape or form disrespecting your Shabbos. All I am pointing out is before calling the pilot a liar the facts should be known.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #170 on: November 18, 2018, 08:21:32 PM »
Take a deep breath. First I am Catholic. Second I am in no way shape or form disrespecting your Shabbos. All I am pointing out is before calling the pilot a liar the facts should be known.
Do you consider the facts to be known at this point.

I am just a couple of months away from celebrating 19 years of refusing to fly ELAL due to their lies and attitude towards passengers (especially if they look "chareidi").
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 09:00:47 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #171 on: November 18, 2018, 08:26:25 PM »
Do you consider the facts to be know at this point.

I am just a couple of months away from celebrating 19 years of refusing to fly ELAL due to their lies and attitude towards passengers (especially if they look "chareidi").
how do you plan to celebrate this special occasion?
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #172 on: November 18, 2018, 08:27:44 PM »
how do you plan to celebrate this special occasion?
By flying a different airline.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #173 on: November 18, 2018, 08:27:58 PM »
Do you consider the facts to be know at this point.
Actually it is now up in the air. According to Dan's last DDMS post he asked permission to return to the gate. What changed? Did he get instructions from higher up not to return to the gate and take off? Did he just say ****** and took off?
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Offline Jo 08701

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #174 on: November 18, 2018, 08:32:32 PM »
Another point which can be argued, if we are responsible for the chilul shabbos for other secular Jews, maybe it would have been better to fly to TLV and avoid the chilul shabbos from additional take off and landing. שב ואל תעשה.
Maybe you can argue that a plane on auto pilot cruising 35000 ft is not really chilul shabbos as the pilots normally don't do much, unless it's an emergency.
Elal can even arrange to have a non Jewish pilot take over right after it lands taking it to the gate.
Just asking for the sake of limud.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #175 on: November 18, 2018, 08:33:29 PM »
Actually it is now up in the air. According to Dan's last DDMS post he asked permission to return to the gate. What changed? Did he get instructions from higher up not to return to the gate and take off? Did he just say ****** and took off?
If it were any other airline, I would say he likely got instructions from operations (which doesn't change the fact that he lied). But given the well known arrogance of ELAL captains, I don't put it beyond possible that this was his own decision. I don't know. And as HRC would have said, what difference does it make at this point?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #176 on: November 18, 2018, 08:37:53 PM »
If it were any other airline, I would say he likely got instructions from ELAL operations (which doesn't change the fact that he lied). But given the well known arrogance of ELAL captains, I don't put it beyond possible that this was his own decision. I don't know. And as HRC would have said, what difference does it make at this point?
All I said from the beginning is Dan should have worded it differently.
You trying to prove my point by using HRC? She was wrong then and still is wrong.  ;)
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Online Lou Bob

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #177 on: November 18, 2018, 08:40:06 PM »
All I said from the beginning is Dan should have worded it differently.
You trying to prove my point by using HRC? She was wrong then and still is wrong.  ;)
wrong thread :)
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #178 on: November 18, 2018, 08:48:46 PM »
wrong thread :)
Tell that to the other guy that mentioned ***.  :P
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #179 on: November 18, 2018, 08:58:26 PM »
Tell that to the other guy that mentioned ***.  :P

She was only mentioned in order to give credit for the famous line (just like her husband was for his famous line).

After all don't we learn in Megillah 15a: "And Rabbi Elazar further said that Rabbi Ḥanina said: Whoever reports a saying in the name of he who said it brings redemption to the world. As it is stated with respect to the incident of Bigthan and Teresh: ďAnd Esther reported it to the king in the name of MordecaiĒ (Esther 2:22), and this eventually brought redemption, as Mordecai was later rewarded for saving the kingís life, paving the way for the miraculous salvation."
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan