El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again

[yochai]

I guess waiting on the plane is probably easier halachically than waiting in the airport.  Regarding בכדי שיעשו, I think they would only had to wait whatever they flew in shabbos which is probably just an hour.
You can argue here that the pilot is a mechalel shabbos for himself, as he will anyway do it. Why are a lot of people in Israel not so makpid on the use of electric on shabbos which I think it is more chilul shabbos involved and done more frequently as a one time emergency.
I am quite positive that whatever elal will have to pay for the fine it's still a fraction of what it cost them the past week.
As you quoted Reb Moshe, was that a לכתחילה לצורך חולה meaning the person knew before reserving that he will arrive on shabbos but due to צורך חולה it was OK or was it a combination delay and a צורך חולה?
Again I am not a Rav. Also we are not talking here לכתחילה as it would be costly for elal to have to prepare food and other logistics through shabbos, plus they won't be able to prepare the aircraft for the moitzai shabbos flight and it will have to be delayed for a few hours.

The only heter for using electricity in Israel on shabbos is because they are doing it for חולים and cases of פיקוח נפש. Not the fact they are doing it anyway. If only your building was cut off and the electric company came to fix it on shabbos, לכולי עלמא you couldn’t use it or enjoy it.
I’m not sure the exact amount of the fine. I definitely know the contract was made so it should never be worthwhile for them to fly on shabbos. (Otherwise they would’ve continued to TLV. They don’t love us so much to put everyone up in ATH just for PR)
The psak from R’ Moshe was for someone who’s father was sick in South Africa and he was needed there to help. R’ Moshe allowed him to board a Friday flight, arriving shabbos, in order for him to be available immediately after.
Your example from the boat doesn’t have to go back 2000 years. Any of our ancestors who came from Europe traveled more then a week by boat.
I suggest we keep halachic discussions low if we don’t want mods to get upset.😉

[yochai]

Another point which can be argued, if we are responsible for the chilul shabbos for other secular Jews, maybe it would have been better to fly to TLV and avoid the chilul shabbos from additional take off and landing. שב ואל תעשה.
Maybe you can argue that a plane on auto pilot cruising 35000 ft is not really chilul shabbos as the pilots normally don't do much, unless it's an emergency.
Elal can even arrange to have a non Jewish pilot take over right after it lands taking it to the gate.
Just asking for the sake of limud.

a person is not obligated to try to lessen the חילול שבת of a מחלל שבת במזיד as long as he’s not doing it for you. PM me if you want sources for this.

[YesThatsMe]

Take a deep breath. First I am Catholic. Second I am in no way shape or form disrespecting your Shabbos. All I am pointing out is before calling the pilot a liar the facts should be known.

My sincerest apologies! What kind of name is Chaim Moskowitz for a Catholic boy? And you sure do know a lot about Chareidi Judaism!

Regarding the "lie" I don't think that's the issue, as someone at ElAl (maybe pilot, maybe corp) decided to screw all the religious passengers.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

My sincerest apologies! What kind of name is Chaim Moskowitz for a Catholic boy? And you sure do know a lot about Chareidi Judaism!

No apologies needed. My name was given to me by a member who shall remain nameless. 

[yitzgar]

No apologies needed. My name was given to me by a member who shall remain nameless. 

Can't give out all the secrets in one thread.....

[ExGingi]

TheMarker.com has an article by Assaf Shmueli, who specializes in internet and digital media PR and crises management. Squarely blaming ELAL for not managing their PR and crises well. Leaving many gaps that he says are what triggers crises.

https://www.themarker.com/amp/blogs/assafshmueli/BLOG-1.6660233

[chinagel]

No apologies needed. My name was given to me by a member who shall remain nameless. 

paging @TimT

[Jo 08701]

The only heter for using electricity in Israel on shabbos is because they are doing it for חולים and cases of פיקוח נפש. Not the fact they are doing it anyway. If only your building was cut off and the electric company came to fix it on shabbos, לכולי עלמא you couldn’t use it or enjoy it.
I’m not sure the exact amount of the fine. I definitely know the contract was made so it should never be worthwhile for them to fly on shabbos. (Otherwise they would’ve continued to TLV. They don’t love us so much to put everyone up in ATH just for PR)
The psak from R’ Moshe was for someone who’s father was sick in South Africa and he was needed there to help. R’ Moshe allowed him to board a Friday flight, arriving shabbos, in order for him to be available immediately after.
Your example from the boat doesn’t have to go back 2000 years. Any of our ancestors who came from Europe traveled more then a week by boat.
I suggest we keep halachic discussions low if we don’t want mods to get upset.😉

I wonna stress again I am not a Rav or even a Talmud chacham.
From the story from Reb Moshe,  I think we can see that it is not a deoirasa, to fly on a plane when you depart before shabbos, if it would have been I doubt he would have been ruling the person should do it as it was not פיקוח נפש.
But again, I might be wrong with my pshetel.

[yochai]

I wonna stress again I am not a Rav or even a Talmud chacham.
From the story from Reb Moshe,  I think we can see that it is not a deoirasa, to fly on a plane when you depart before shabbos, if it would have been I doubt he would have been ruling the person should do it as it was not פיקוח נפש.
But again, I might be wrong with my pshetel.

100%. Probably not even a derabanan. But only if the pilot isn’t Jewish!

[Deals dealer]

Jerusalem Post mentioning DansDeals..

https://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/We-were-kidnapped-by-El-Al-say-passengers-on-horror-flight-from-New-York-572234

[Jo 08701]

100%. Probably not even a derabanan. But only if the pilot isn’t Jewish!

What does it make a difference in halacha for the frum yiden what the pilot is? It's not like they are asking him anything to do. As per his chilul shabbos since when do most frum yidden go out and protest every week on Jerusalem. We can also see plenty frum yidden riding the light rail or buses moitzai shabbos and we all know that it was chilul shabbos involved in order to operate so close to shabbos.
I understand they would have to wait בכדי שיעשו.
How about another solution,  why can't elal have non Jewish pilots, at least one out of the 3 pilots on a 747, especially if they see it can run into problems. I am sure there are druze or Israeli Arabs pilots, or even have a list from the US for available pilots for an emergency like the past shabbos.

[Jo 08701]

Another point, as per what I read, if the plane would have continue straight to Tel Aviv it would have arrived 15-20 after sunset. Now I do understand that all yiden accepted that shabbos is starting by sunset, however I know for a fact that in the US, for example the Satmar rabanim in case of a semi emergency, like unforeseen traffic and instead of being stranded for shabbos they rule that in such a case you have till about 20 min after sunset.
My whole point of the questions is that this whole chilul shabbos avoidance is more like a nationalistic feeling. Fact is because the plane diverted to ATH it was caused double chilul shabbos deoirasa for other secular Jews with no שיטה להיתר. One for elal and for arkia. They all knew that it would happen. Non of the frum yidden had any הוה אמינא that all secular Jews together with the crew will stay in ATH. Had they agreed to continue to TLV they could avoid that,  and they would not be in violation of any deoirasa or even derabanan.

[Ergel]

Thank you Dan for using your voice for good and standing up for truth in the face of anti charedi propaganda

[davidrotts63]

Maybe this whole Tesla thing happened just so the world can see the other side of this story...

[Redbull3]

Take a deep breath. First I am Catholic. Second I am in no way shape or form disrespecting your Shabbos. All I am pointing out is before calling the pilot a liar the facts should be known.

this is hilarious every time this happens

[Redbull3]

Thank you Dan for using your voice for good and standing up for truth in the face of anti charedi propaganda

hear hear! Great article and a worthy topic for ddms, even if it’s not a deal.

[grodnoking]

Another point, as per what I read, if the plane would have continue straight to Tel Aviv it would have arrived 15-20 after sunset. Now I do understand that all yiden accepted that shabbos is starting by sunset, however I know for a fact that in the US, for example the Satmar rabanim in case of a semi emergency, like unforeseen traffic and instead of being stranded for shabbos they rule that in such a case you have till about 20 min after sunset.
My whole point of the questions is that this whole chilul shabbos avoidance is more like a nationalistic feeling. Fact is because the plane diverted to ATH it was caused double chilul shabbos deoirasa for other secular Jews with no שיטה להיתר. One for elal and for arkia. They all knew that it would happen. Non of the frum yidden had any הוה אמינא that all secular Jews together with the crew will stay in ATH. Had they agreed to continue to TLV they could avoid that,  and they would not be in violation of any deoirasa or even derabanan.

In Israel that time is closer to 4 minutes due to how fast the sun sets here, so even if you held something like that it still wouldn't work.

[ExGingi]

From the JPost article:

a spokesman for El Al refused to say how many passengers the company was filing complaints against.
He also refused to say why religious passengers had not been allowed to get off the plane in New York, or if and why the captain had lied to them when he said he was returning to the gate.

In addition, he declined to say why the flight attendants had been late and why, unlike the flight attendants, all the passengers had been able to arrive on time despite the weather conditions.

I would guess that publishing just these questions daily on the front page of one or more Israeli newspapers until ELAL at the very least comes clean, and better yet commits to serious changes as to how they treat their customers, might go a very long way.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

From the JPost article:

I would guess that publishing just these questions daily on the front page of one or more Israeli newspapers until ELAL at the very least comes clean, and better yet commits to serious changes as to how they treat their customers, might go a very long way.

When I hear these stories about ELAL I get confused what thread I am in. It seems they can do what they want whenever they want and not lose their core flyers.

[ExGingi]

When I hear these stories about ELAL I get confused what thread I am in. It seems they can do what they want whenever they want and not lose their core flyers.

They've endured for longer than you have been around (IINM) with that strategy. In politics it's actually easier.