Author Topic: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again  (Read 41088 times)

Offline chff

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #220 on: November 19, 2018, 12:54:59 PM »
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2018/11/19/el-al-violence/

Quote
I reference this last video because of the ominous threat at its conclusion. All three items provide circumstantial evidence at best.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 12:58:20 PM by chff »

Offline Jo 08701

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #221 on: November 19, 2018, 12:55:22 PM »
Deplane 11:30 would definitely cause chilul shabbos and I don't think elal would continue as per what others said that there is a fine for them for a clear chilul shabbos.
But giving the option before boarding which I believe it was about 8:30 not to board, and reschedule whoever wants to, it would take away alot of blame from them even it would have arrive a few minutes after shkiah,  and definitely if it would arrive just in time, and had they given for the frum passengers accommodation at the airport in TLV it would have been a big PR for them.
It looks like this shailos will be more often. I think they need to adopt a strict policy. Maybe even have flyers by the check in on Thursday night flights explaining for the passengers what they can expect in emergency cases.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 01:00:27 PM by Jo 08701 »

Offline Deal Guy

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #222 on: November 19, 2018, 01:04:47 PM »
I donít understand why Elal 002 diverted to Athens?
 If you looked at flightaware that night and were tracking the flight, you were able to see that flight was scheduled to land at 4:00-4:10pm in TLV, and the pilot was at times flying in excess of 700mph.
 I was surprised to wake up the next morning and see that it diverted to Athens.
 Flight 008 on the other hand was obvious that they werenít gonna make it.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #223 on: November 19, 2018, 04:12:19 PM »
+1

As long as it puts the facts the way they are (that ELAL doesn't care about Shabbos, and doesn't respect their paying customers, especially if they appear "chareidi"), and faults Shomrei Shabbos for booking/boarding those flights except in cases of true emergency.

On that note, while I am sure Rabbi Sorotzkin's intentions were good, wouldn't he have done better calling on everyone NOT TO BOARD THE FLIGHT, rather than taking steps to ensure that everyone can be accommodated for Shabbos wherever the plane might land?

Isarel News10 Channel is publishing what is allegedly the report from the pilot (captain?):

https://www.10.tv/news/176528

In that report it says (presumably referring to Rabbi Sorotzkin):
Quote
רב ממחלקת העסקים וביקש לדבר בכריזה עם אותם חרדים ולשכנע אותם להמשיך בטיסה: "הוא מסביר להם שזה בסדר להגיע לארץ שעה לפני השבת, ושהם יקבלו אש"ל. אותם חרדים מתרצים".

Given all the information coming out, and giving the benefit of the doubt to everyone, here is how I think the situation should have been handled, and would have been a POSITIVE customer-relations and PR experience:

Since boarding began about 2 hours late, which means that had there been no additional delays and flight would run just 2 hours behind schedule, it would have arrived about 2:30 hours before Shabbos.

EVERYONE should have been given a written and verbal notice in Hebrew, English and Yiddish PRIOR TO BOARDING stating the following:



Due to the delayed start, the flight is scheduled to arrive only X:XX before Shabbos. This is true only if EVERYONE decides to board, and there are no additional delays which are beyond anyone's control.

Once the doors to the flight are closed, the flight will take off, and no-one will be allowed to deplane. Every effort will be made to land in TLV no later than 30 minutes before sunset. If that is the case, arrangements will be made for passengers who wish to spend the Shabbos at LLBG. If it is discovered at any point that it is impossible to land 30 minutes or more before sunset in TLV, the plane will be diverted to a (yet to be determined, depending on timing) location in Europe, where accommodations will be made for those who choose to spend Shabbos there and they will continue to TLV within 6 hours after Shabbos is over. Alternative flights will be made available for those who wish to continue to TLV before Shabbos is over.




If given such a notice in advance, where the potential problems can and should be anticipated, expectations will be set right, and emotions should be under control.

IMHO most frum passengers would choose not to fly. If any of them checked in luggage, that would cause an additional substantial delay, retrieving the luggage (unless somehow there's a way around that - but IMHO it's bad enough flying on a Thursday evening, no shomer shabbos should have checked luggage on such a flight), but that might actually lessen the load on the plane and possibly allow faster flying time. (I wonder what Rabbi Sorotzkin would have publicly said or personally done if given such a notice.)

ELAL would come out a winner, trying to help keep Shabbos and caring for their passengers, the immediate financial cost would probably be lower, and the reputational cost would definitely be lower, and possibly even a gain in reputation.

Such a notice would also allow the person traveling along with a deceased, to call up their LOR and ask what they should do.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 04:21:30 PM by ExGingi »
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #224 on: November 19, 2018, 04:20:58 PM »
Isarel News10 Channel is publishing what is allegedly the report from the pilot (captain?):

https://www.10.tv/news/176528
Not fair, I can't read it.  >:(
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Offline as2

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #225 on: November 19, 2018, 04:37:39 PM »
Not fair, I can't read it.  >:(
You really need to start using Chrome.
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #226 on: November 19, 2018, 04:42:08 PM »
Not fair, I can't read it.  >:(

Didn't try this: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=www.10.tv%2Fnews%2F176528&edit-text=&act=url ?

You would get the gist of things. Though I'd like to hear from you what you would have inserted instead of "economy" and instead of "Those Ultra-Orthodox are rational"
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 04:45:24 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #227 on: November 19, 2018, 04:42:23 PM »
You really need to start using Chrome.

:D

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #228 on: November 19, 2018, 04:52:59 PM »
Didn't try this: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=www.10.tv%2Fnews%2F176528&edit-text=&act=url ?

You would get the gist of things. Though I'd like to hear from you what you would have inserted instead of "economy" and instead of "Those Ultra-Orthodox are rational"
Thanks and I am not inserting anything as I know my limitations.  :)
I want to hear his version of telling the passengers if they sit down he will return to the gate.
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #229 on: November 19, 2018, 04:53:46 PM »
You really need to start using Chrome.
To many sites fail with RoboForm.
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Offline yesitsme

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #230 on: November 19, 2018, 04:56:45 PM »
Didn't try this: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=www.10.tv%2Fnews%2F176528&edit-text=&act=url ?

You would get the gist of things. Though I'd like to hear from you what you would have inserted instead of "economy" and instead of "Those Ultra-Orthodox are rational"
הקברניט: "החלו דיווחים על דחיפות ושליחת ידיים
The captain: "There have been reports of urgency and handshaking

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #231 on: November 19, 2018, 04:58:13 PM »
הקברניט: "החלו דיווחים על דחיפות ושליחת ידיים
The captain: "There have been reports of urgency and handshaking
I guess this is a case where the translation might be more accurate than the original.  ;D
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #232 on: November 19, 2018, 04:58:37 PM »
To many sites fail with RoboForm.
Why is that any better than Lastpass?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline yesitsme

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #233 on: November 19, 2018, 05:00:39 PM »
I guess this is a case where the translation might be more accurate than the original.  ;D
Before you know it, the Israeli news published a English article translated to Hebrew with google translate and nothing ever happened.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 05:23:56 PM by yesitsme »

Offline ExGingi

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #234 on: November 19, 2018, 05:03:40 PM »
Before you no it the Israeli news published a English article translated to Hebrew with google translate and nothing ever happened.
Can I get an English (or Hebrew, or Yiddish. Will also accept Aramaic and French) translation of your sentence?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #235 on: November 19, 2018, 05:04:54 PM »
Why is that any better than Lastpass?
Have no idea if it is but have been using it forever.
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Offline Jo 08701

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #236 on: November 19, 2018, 05:12:51 PM »
I think elal has a point,  if you are a true shomer shabbos you have no business boarding the plane after 8:30 especially if they are ready to reschedule you for moitzai shabbos without any extra cost. If you do board than it's on your own risk.
I don't believe over 150 passengers had a real emergency,  and needed to be on that plane.
Having said that, they still have an obligation to try to accommodate religious customers.
IMO arriving at the gate up to the shkiah, would be good enough for them and they could argue that the religious people are at fault here for not letting them. If the flight would depart 11:30 when they were given the clearance for takeoff, they would arrive even 15 min before shkiah or even earlier.
The real question is,  if they were honest with passengers by check in, and if they were flexible to do changes on reservations.

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #237 on: November 19, 2018, 05:20:01 PM »
To many sites fail with RoboForm.
You really need to start using Lastpass
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline yesitsme

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #238 on: November 19, 2018, 05:26:12 PM »
Can I get an English (or Hebrew, or Yiddish. Will also accept Aramaic and French) translation of your sentence?
לפני שאתה יודע את זה חדשות ישראל פרסם מאמר באנגלית מתורגם לעברית עם Google לתרגם שום דבר לא קרה.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
« Reply #239 on: November 19, 2018, 05:45:37 PM »
1. Would United or Delta have gone back to the gate to accommodate ~50% of the plane who wanted to get off?

2. Would United or Delta have diverted a flight to Greece, paid for accommodations, and then sent a special charter flight to pick up passengers?

Aside from the pilot lying and not turning around after he said he did (which is wrong, but possibly didn't change anything), I'm not sure the best outcome wasn't achieved once people decided to take the risk and board a flight barely 12 hours from candle-lighting in TLV.