Author Topic: Is this story true?  (Read 18396 times)

Offline SuperFlyer

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Is this story true?
« on: August 31, 2011, 09:23:23 PM »
Mafia Godfather and the Yeshiva

This seemingly too-incredible-to-be-true story actually took place. It was
during WW2 where twenty-four rabbis were being held in Italy and faced
being returned to Nazi- occupied Europe and certain death. Rabbi Aharon Kotler,
 founder and head of Lakewood Yeshiva and a leader of Ashkenazi non-chasidic
 Judaism in America, turned to the well-known Orthodox Jewish activist and
 subsequent author of Ethics From Sinai, Irving Bunim, and asked him who
 could intercede on behalf of these 24 rabbis. Irving Bunim suggested the
 Italian Mafia! Rabbi Kotler urged Mr. Bunim to contact them immediately.

After contacting them he asked Rabbi Kotler, "Who are we sending to the meeting?"
Rabbi Kotler replied, "You and I are going."
Off they went to meet the godfather of the Mafia, Joe Bonnano. Rabbi Kotler did not speak English, so it was Mr. Bunim who explained the problem of the 24 Rabbis trapped in Italy.
The Mafia chief asked Mr. Bunim, "Who is the elderly man sitting next to you?"
He told him, "He is the godfather of the Jewish people."
"Really?" asked the Mafia chief.
"Yes!" replied Mr.Bunim emphatically.
"Tell him I want a blessing."
So Mr. Irving Bunim turned to Rabbi Aharon Kotler and in Yiddish told him,
"Ehr vill a Brocha fun de Rav. (He wants a blessing from the Rabbi)."
"Zog eim ehr zol leiben lang un shtarben in bet."
 Irving Bunim turned back to the Mafia chief Joe Bonnano and told him,
"The Rabbi blesses you with long life and you should die in bed."
 Upon hearing this, the Mafia chief replied, "I like that," [both parts ed.] and promised within 2 weeks to arrange the freedom of the 24 Rabbis stuck in Italy. Which he did indeed accomplish.

Twenty-something years later, in 1964, a shiny black stretch limo pulls up in front of Lakewood Yeshiva in Lakewood New Jersey. Two fancy-dressed guys get out and walk up to the office. They say they  are looking for Rabbi Kotler.
Out comes Rabbi Kotler and introduces himself.
 "No, not you," say the two Italian guys. "We are looking for an older man."
 "That was my father, but he passed away a number of years ago," states Rabbi Kotler.
 The Italian guys explain that they are the Bonnano brothers, and that their father always "attributed his long life to your saintly father's blessing. Now that he has just retired, we are taking over the business and we came here for the same blessing."
   "I'm sorry," says Rabbi Kotler, "my father could do that, but I am not on that high level."
  Disappointed, but clearly understanding the concept of 'yeridat hadorot' the descent of the generations, the new Mafia chiefs bid farewell to the [then] current Rabbi Kotler. 
 
 For saving 24 Rabbis from the Nazis, and with Rabbi Aharon Kotler's blessing, Joe Bonnano - the Mafia godfather - lived to 97 years old.

Offline elikay

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Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 09:39:07 PM »
Thanks.

As a matter of fact, I was now on holidays the same  place as R' Malkiel Kotler, as he was undercover at this location to get some real rest.

Offline mercaz1

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2011, 10:16:59 AM »
great story. never heard that one before

Offline damaxer91

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2011, 01:08:36 PM »
Thanks.

As a matter of fact, I was now on holidays the same  place as R' Malkiel Kotler, as he was undercover at this location to get some real rest.

How'd he manage that? Shaved his beard?

Offline YudiG

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2011, 02:54:11 PM »
Thanks.

As a matter of fact, I was now on holidays the same  place as R' Malkiel Kotler, as he was undercover at this location to get some real rest.

Now that it's over, enlighten us - where did he go? ;)

Offline abetobee

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2011, 08:07:54 PM »
Thanks.

As a matter of fact, I was now on holidays the same  place as R' Malkiel Kotler, as he was undercover at this location to get some real rest.
heard he bentched gomel yesterday, must've been some exotic or scary place.

Offline clownaparte

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2011, 09:03:36 PM »
http://books.google.com/books?id=-Jb4w78HMzUC&pg=PA132#v=onepage&q&f=false

also see:

http://matzav.com/rav-aharon-kotler-ztl-and-the-mafia-godfather

The fact that two Jewish sources have the story is meaningless. Once one author writes it, it will spread all over. Also, the google books link had the guy's name as Joe Othello (I guess he wasn't very good at chess or checkers). Unfortunately my google searching did not turn up any Godfather by the name of Joe Othello (unless they deliberately didn't want to write his real name???). I have also not been able to find any "outside" sources to corroborate this story. That does not mean it is definitely not true; only that the "proof" is flimsy.

Offline henche

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2011, 09:07:39 PM »
Hmmm. Can we get snopes on it?

Offline elikay

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2011, 10:20:58 PM »
The fact that two Jewish sources have the story is meaningless. Once one author writes it, it will spread all over.
That does not mean it is definitely not true; only that the "proof" is flimsy.
Firstly no one was proving anything, as a matter of fact the Matzav link is word for word what superflyer posted. My point was to show to sources for the story, and to link to the many comments on Matzav.com (including the fact that the story probably did not happen with someone Othello).
Unfortunately my google searching did not turn up any Godfather by the name of Joe Othello (unless they deliberately didn't want to write his real name???).
Cute suggestion I didn’t even think of that, I think someone just messed up.
I have also not been able to find any "outside" sources to corroborate this story. That does not mean it is definitely not true; only that the "proof" is flimsy.
The sources quoted in the book: Vaad Hatzolah activist Rabbi Sholom Shapiro of Kew Gardens, Rabbi Leib Heiman talmid of Rav Kotler and Rabbi of Bayit Vagan (just passed away one month ago) and Rabbi Eliezer Kupperman of the Lakewood Yeshiva office for decades, are quite good sources for me (I will admit that some details may have gotten smudged).
Additionally one of the comments on Matzav.com says that Amos Bunim discusses it in his book, I don’t have that book to confirm that.

Offline clownaparte

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2011, 01:13:40 AM »
The sources quoted in the book: Vaad Hatzolah activist Rabbi Sholom Shapiro of Kew Gardens, Rabbi Leib Heiman talmid of Rav Kotler and Rabbi of Bayit Vagan (just passed away one month ago) and Rabbi Eliezer Kupperman of the Lakewood Yeshiva office for decades, are quite good sources for me (I will admit that some details may have gotten smudged).
Additionally one of the comments on Matzav.com says that Amos Bunim discusses it in his book, I don’t have that book to confirm that.

If I heard them say it, I'd probably think differently, but just having the author say that they said it is different.

If so, you may ask, why believe anything if you didn't hear it yourself? Well, to pick the first "moshol" that comes to mind (DDF, after all!): compare the veracity of anything you read to a FICO score. There a multiple things that come into play when deciding what to believe (or whom to trust, in the case of FICO). The personal credibility of the author is definitely one factor - If I know him/her, that's a huge plus (or huge minus, sometimes!!!). Receiving the same information from multiple, independent sources is another plus (multiple sources that are likely to simply have heard it from one another and repeated it aren't multiple sources). If I can personally verify the information, even better. The more mundane the information, the lower the threshold for believing it. If someone wrote that R' Yaakov was always makpid to have his tefilling on before baruch shomar or hodu - fine, why not? If someone tells me that R' Yaakov was really a secret astronaut who used to sneak out of yeshiva once a month for NASA training, how likely am I to believe him? The threshold for evidence grows the more improbable a story is. For example, if a writer is writing a book about someone, particularly a book about a great figure or sage, there is always a chashash of hagiography. Again, not saying it is not true, just that my instinctual BS antennae have not been sufficiently quieted...

As an aside, if you ever look up urban legends on snopes, you will notice that many (false) stories have very detailed information about who said what and how did what. Often, the big doctor or lawyer being quoted never heard of it, their name was just used to lend credibility to the story. After all, if HE said that, it must be true.

Just a reiterate - I'm not saying that they weren't there or didn't say that - but that just because the author throws in some names does not mean that those people even heard of this story...

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2011, 02:55:14 AM »
@ Damax: no he kept his beard, not all rabonim have ones that can be detached.

As to the location, if he might want to use this place again, I don't want to spoil it for him.

On a funny note: He davened using a Siddur from Edut Hamizrach. (Took pix of it)

Offline aussiebochur

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2011, 09:14:06 AM »
Now that it's over, enlighten us - where did he go? ;)
Apparently he couldnt turn down Supers offer, http://www.dansdeals.com/forums/index.php?topic=8349.0

Offline Deal Guy

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2011, 12:29:54 AM »
@ Damax: no he kept his beard, not all rabonim have ones that can be detached.

As to the location, if he might want to use this place again, I don't want to spoil it for him.

On a funny note: He davened using a Siddur from Edut Hamizrach. (Took pix of it)
Can we see the pic, without disclosing the location?

Offline elikay

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2011, 12:40:25 AM »
If I heard them say it, I'd probably think differently, but just having the author say that they said it is different.

If so, you may ask, why believe anything if you didn't hear it yourself? Well, to pick the first "moshol" that comes to mind (DDF, after all!): compare the veracity of anything you read to a FICO score. There a multiple things that come into play when deciding what to believe (or whom to trust, in the case of FICO). The personal credibility of the author is definitely one factor - If I know him/her, that's a huge plus (or huge minus, sometimes!!!). Receiving the same information from multiple, independent sources is another plus (multiple sources that are likely to simply have heard it from one another and repeated it aren't multiple sources). If I can personally verify the information, even better. The more mundane the information, the lower the threshold for believing it. If someone wrote that R' Yaakov was always makpid to have his tefilling on before baruch shomar or hodu - fine, why not? If someone tells me that R' Yaakov was really a secret astronaut who used to sneak out of yeshiva once a month for NASA training, how likely am I to believe him? The threshold for evidence grows the more improbable a story is. For example, if a writer is writing a book about someone, particularly a book about a great figure or sage, there is always a chashash of hagiography. Again, not saying it is not true, just that my instinctual BS antennae have not been sufficiently quieted...

As an aside, if you ever look up urban legends on snopes, you will notice that many (false) stories have very detailed information about who said what and how did what. Often, the big doctor or lawyer being quoted never heard of it, their name was just used to lend credibility to the story. After all, if HE said that, it must be true.

Just a reiterate - I'm not saying that they weren't there or didn't say that - but that just because the author throws in some names does not mean that those people even heard of this story...
I happen to meet one of the people mentioned every once in a while, next time I meet him (and have the guts to!) I will ask him.

Offline Hudi

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2011, 03:09:02 AM »
 I really feel bad to bring this up but I feel it's necessary being that I'm related to a young bochur who died of hunger in a Lubavitch yeshiva during WW2 which was right next to one of Aharon Kotler's yeshivas which at the time had a surplus of food. However the yeshiva was instructed by Aharon Kotler not to provide any food to the starving Lubavitch bochurim in the neighboring yeshiva. In fact some of the bochurim in Aharon Kotler's yeshiva took pity and broke the rules by sneaking a bag of rice to the Lubavitch bochurim. Several Lubavitch bochurim died of hunger when the supply stopped.

Another story: My great aunt worked in Aharon Kotler's office and they received a desperate plea from R. Weismandel in Slovokia who had bribed nazi officials to release thousands of Jews. At one point he secured a deal with Eichman to release many of the Hungarian Jews in the camps in late 1944 for an unknown sum of money. The request begged Aharon Kotler to help raise the funds needed to secure their release. His response was "NO" but he went on to print an updated version of "Shita Mekubetzes" (priorities?)

This story was documented a book called "The Unheeded Cry"

Needless to say I have a hard time believing the above mentioned  story...

« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 04:23:04 AM by Hudi »

Offline SuperFlyer

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2011, 06:54:46 AM »







Offline damaxer91

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2011, 07:10:47 AM »
I really feel bad to bring this up but I feel it's necessary being that I'm related to a young bochur who died of hunger in a Lubavitch yeshiva during WW2 which was right next to one of Aharon Kotler's yeshivas which at the time had a surplus of food. However the yeshiva was instructed by Aharon Kotler not to provide any food to the starving Lubavitch bochurim in the neighboring yeshiva. In fact some of the bochurim in Aharon Kotler's yeshiva took pity and broke the rules by sneaking a bag of rice to the Lubavitch bochurim. Several Lubavitch bochurim died of hunger when the supply stopped.

Another story: My great aunt worked in Aharon Kotler's office and they received a desperate plea from R. Weismandel in Slovokia who had bribed nazi officials to release thousands of Jews. At one point he secured a deal with Eichman to release many of the Hungarian Jews in the camps in late 1944 for an unknown sum of money. The request begged Aharon Kotler to help raise the funds needed to secure their release. His response was "NO" but he went on to print an updated version of "Shita Mekubetzes" (priorities?)

This story was documented a book called "The Unheeded Cry"

Needless to say I have a hard time believing the above mentioned  story...



Where did you pick up all that $%*&?

Not only are you spreading Motzei Shem Ra, you are stomping on the grave of the Gadol Hador responsible for the revitalization of Torah in America and the PREEMINENT fundraiser for the Vaad during the war

Offline aussiebochur

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2011, 07:17:36 AM »
He quotes this book, http://www.amazon.com/dp/089906468X/?tag=cl03f-20

Ever read it?
Being that its published by Artscroll, can't believe such a story would be in it...
But I haven't read it, so...
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 11:08:15 AM by Dan »

Offline damaxer91

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Re: Is this story true?
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2011, 07:19:40 AM »
He quotes this book, http://www.amazon.com/Unheeded-Cry-Weissmandl-Holocaust-ArtScroll/dp/089906468X

Ever read it?
Being that its published by Artscroll, can't believe such a story would be in it...
But I haven't read it, so...

Which story? R' Aaron barely ate or slept during those years so I highly doubt that he was publishing his Kuntros while he could have used money so save people