Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel

[yfr bachur]

Yes.
As great as it is to live in EY BH, there are ppl who want to be able to see their family which they haven't seen, possibly in many months.

Sorry for getting triggered by this but:

I've been pretty open on these forums about my parents financial abilities, (and my current status too).
Every time I left the US to go to EY, (both as a bachur and after I got married), and every time my parents leave from a visit here - I/We are very aware that this may be the last time we see each other for a very long time - or ever. I saw my parents a year ago, when my sister got married and I know may not see them ever again. This is the reality of living thousands of miles away from each other, and an awareness that people dont live forever and honestly theres no garuntee that your parents will pass in a way that gives you time to come from the other side of the world to say goodbye. There's also awarness of me living in a relatively dangerous place that they may not see me before I go, and/or lines of travel could be interupted for extended periods of time.
We know this, and accept it as a fact of life and a worthwhile "sacrifice" for get my family getting the zchus to live in EY, - something that generations of yidden longed for.

(I know I could stop here, and this post will prob get a bunch of likes, and be discussed for about two more posts at best and shalom al yisroel - but something has been bothering me for quite a while, and I think I'd like to at least start writing about it here. The following is not meant to be trolling, patronising, or critical of any particular person or community. I write it as an opportunity for me/us to reflect on what is, and what is meant to be. I actualy spent much of sukkos developing this my mind - how to write it, how exactly to phrase things so its not seen as attacking anything in particular or patronising or the like, but we all know what happened, and it didnt really seem to be appropriate to post this then... and I dont think that I will be able to replicate the quality writing that I had prepared then. I hope that this will be seen as inspiration and opportunity for discussion and not as an attack on anyone.)

Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in/visiting EY?

Shortly after I first came to EY, I was shocked by an older avreichs revelation that he had not been to the kosel in over 30 days and frequently had more time than that pass between "visits" . I thought "How could this be? How could it be that a person has the zchus to live in Yerusholayim, a very short bus ride from the kosel and not daven there where the remnants of the schina are at least once a month if not much more often than that? How could he not be drawn like a magnet to the sridei bais elokeinu??
Fast forward 12 years and - I am that avreich. I've lost the Frishkeit and excitment over the zchus I have. I dont daven at the Kosel often enough, nor Kever Rochel, nor Mearas Hamachpeila. Not the kivrei tzadikim in the Galil either. With all the good hechsherim and supply chains, theres not much left of mitzvos tluyos baaretz (Even in a shmita year!! - unless you ibur maaser, or have a chatzer to grow stuff in - of which I have neither). The examples are endless, I realize I've lost much of my appreciation for much of my zchus in EY and need to work on regaining it.

I look at the society around me and ask: Has the frum world also lost its appreciation for EY? Is the holy city of Yerusholayim nothing more than a honeymoon spot where we go running for mommy at the first dificulty, a place where bachurim can do an extended unsupervised roadtrip, a base for trips to Europe? A place where we bring in all sorts of american bedieveds and corrupt the pure people around us? A city to chase the latest fashions, bring the latest tech, eat the trendiest foods ? Do we not aspire to live here for the kedusha and tehara? Are these things befiting of the palhedrin shel melech?

When we visit - Do we realize the zchus we have or has EY just turned into a stop on the yearly social calendar - "Yeshiva Week" in Florida, 21 Adar in Lizensk, Pesach at some exotic hotel, and sukkos in JLM? Is the highlite of the trip the kosel or the chocolate factory in Ranana? Kever Rochel or the blind Museum in cholon? The ruchnius of tzfas or the art galeries? The pashtus of Toldos Aharon or the duplex you're staying in in Schneller? Taking trumos and Maaseros or the quality of the pizza? The talmidei chachamim on rechov press or the street scene in geula? The grandour of Belz/Viznitz or your hotel room in the WA? What do your children remember from their trip?

I've lost some of my appreciation for EY - What about YOU?

[stooges44]

Sorry for getting triggered by this but:

I can't answer just yet but this def needs it's own thread.

[yshad]

Sorry for getting triggered by this but:

You seem to be talking about two separate but valid points.
1. People who view EY/Yerushalayim as another vacation place, comparable to Cancun or Vienna
2. People who view EY/Yerushalayim as just another place to live, comparable to Lakewood or Brooklyn.
Not arguing with anything, just pointing out.

[YesThatsMe]

Sorry for getting triggered by this but:

I've been pretty open on these forums about my parents financial abilities, (and my current status too).
Every time I left the US to go to EY, (both as a bachur and after I got married), and every time my parents leave from a visit here - I/We are very aware that this may be the last time we see each other for a very long time - or ever. I saw my parents a year ago, when my sister got married and I know may not see them ever again. This is the reality of living thousands of miles away from each other, and an awareness that people dont live forever and honestly theres no garuntee that your parents will pass in a way that gives you time to come from the other side of the world to say goodbye. There's also awarness of me living in a relatively dangerous place that they may not see me before I go, and/or lines of travel could be interupted for extended periods of time.
We know this, and accept it as a fact of life and a worthwhile "sacrifice" for get my family getting the zchus to live in EY, - something that generations of yidden longed for.

(I know I could stop here, and this post will prob get a bunch of likes, and be discussed for about two more posts at best and shalom al yisroel - but something has been bothering me for quite a while, and I think I'd like to at least start writing about it here. The following is not meant to be trolling, patronising, or critical of any particular person or community. I write it as an opportunity for me/us to reflect on what is, and what is meant to be. I actualy spent much of sukkos developing this my mind - how to write it, how exactly to phrase things so its not seen as attacking anything in particular or patronising or the like, but we all know what happened, and it didnt really seem to be appropriate to post this then... and I dont think that I will be able to replicate the quality writing that I had prepared then. I hope that this will be seen as inspiration and opportunity for discussion and not as an attack on anyone.)

Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in/visiting EY?

Shortly after I first came to EY, I was shocked by an older avreichs revelation that he had not been to the kosel in over 30 days and frequently had more time than that pass between "visits" . I thought "How could this be? How could it be that a person has the zchus to live in Yerusholayim, a very short bus ride from the kosel and not daven there where the remnants of the schina are at least once a month if not much more often than that? How could he not be drawn like a magnet to the sridei bais elokeinu??
Fast forward 12 years and - I am that avreich. I've lost the Frishkeit and excitment over the zchus I have. I dont daven at the Kosel often enough, nor Kever Rochel, nor Mearas Hamachpeila. Not the kivrei tzadikim in the Galil either. With all the good hechsherim and supply chains, theres not much left of mitzvos tluyos baaretz (Even in a shmita year!! - unless you ibur maaser, or have a chatzer to grow stuff in - of which I have neither). The examples are endless, I realize I've lost much of my appreciation for much of my zchus in EY and need to work on regaining it.

I look at the society around me and ask: Has the frum world also lost its appreciation for EY? Is the holy city of Yerusholayim nothing more than a honeymoon spot where we go running for mommy at the first dificulty, a place where bachurim can do an extended unsupervised roadtrip, a base for trips to Europe? A place where we bring in all sorts of american bedieveds and corrupt the pure people around us? A city to chase the latest fashions, bring the latest tech, eat the trendiest foods ? Do we not aspire to live here for the kedusha and tehara? Are these things befiting of the palhedrin shel melech?

When we visit - Do we realize the zchus we have or has EY just turned into a stop on the yearly social calendar - "Yeshiva Week" in Florida, 21 Adar in Lizensk, Pesach at some exotic hotel, and sukkos in JLM? Is the highlite of the trip the kosel or the chocolate factory in Ranana? Kever Rochel or the blind Museum in cholon? The ruchnius of tzfas or the art galeries? The pashtus of Toldos Aharon or the duplex you're staying in in Schneller? Taking trumos and Maaseros or the quality of the pizza? The talmidei chachamim on rechov press or the street scene in geula? The grandour of Belz/Viznitz or your hotel room in the WA? What do your children remember from their trip?

I've lost some of my appreciation for EY - What about YOU?

I found myself agreeing with everything you wrote until you got to “Talmidei Chachamim on Rechov Press”. Let’s not kid ourselves. These guys have no monopoly over the authenticity of learning and leadership, spending 10 years on 4 lines in a Rishon. I’d rather see you write “The Mezumanim Beki’im of Rechov Yirmiyahu”, even with all the political connotations. IYKYK.

And 99.9% of the blame lays with the Zionists who defiled our holy land and holy city, not the good Jews of the diaspora who truly love Eretz Yisroel but arrive to find a westernised civilisation created and run by those who defile every holiness. מה יעשה הבן ולא יחטא

[Jellybelly]

I found myself agreeing with everything you wrote until you got to “Talmidei Chachamim on Rechov Press”. Let’s not kid ourselves. These guys have no monopoly over the authenticity of learning and leadership, spending 10 years on 4 lines in a Rishon. I’d rather see you write “The Mezumanim Beki’im of Rechov Yirmiyahu”, even with all the political connotations. IYKYK.

Someone still has a chip on his shoulder!
How many years has it been since you didn’t get in?
Get over it, it’s not healthy

[YesThatsMe]

Someone still has a chip on his shoulder!
How many years has it been since you didn’t get in?
Get over it, it’s not healthy

LOL. Was there for 5 years, TYVM.

[cmey]

I found myself agreeing with everything you wrote until you got to “Talmidei Chachamim on Rechov Press”. Let’s not kid ourselves. These guys have no monopoly over the authenticity of learning and leadership, spending 10 years on 4 lines in a Rishon. I’d rather see you write “The Mezumanim Beki’im of Rechov Yirmiyahu”, even with all the political connotations. IYKYK.

And 99.9% of the blame lays with the Zionists who defiled our holy land and holy city, not the good Jews of the diaspora who truly love Eretz Yisroel but arrive to find a westernised civilisation created and run by those who defile every holiness. מה יעשה הבן ולא יחטא

The Zionists no more turned Yerushalayim into a Mecca of vacation, shopping, food, high end living, and boasting rights, than the eggs farmers turned Lakewood into Ir Hamosros. We did it. When the Zionists had movie theaters and what not all over Yerushalayim the frum population stayed far away. When we started putting every frum shtemple on Olam Hazeh, that succeeded in invading our machaneh.

When this weeks Mishpacha has an ad for high end kitchens that proclaims “close the shades, your neighbors are gawking” a feature article on the pilgrimage to Orlando and the ultimate kiddush sheim shomayim of the local frum guy who does hasbarah of frum idiosyncrasies to the local population, and a standing rib roast proclaiming “premuim cuts for premium people” (just to pick examples from one publication) it is sending a message loud an clear: This world is the טרקלין not the פרוזדור. This is the last stop. Indulge in it. Immerse in it.

This outlook has succeeded in completely pervading the vast majority of our machaneh over the last three decades. When we come to Eretz Yisrael we simply import this worldview with us. Is it any wonder that we no longer appreciate the simplicity of the old yishuv, the inherent kedusha of the mekomos hakedoship sans trips and high end kumzitzes? If it’s our טרקלין then it ain’t the פלהדרין של מלך.

The Zionists are an easy scapegoat but we need to look in the mirror and acknowledge that’s it’s no one other than us.

[aygart]

LOL. Was there for 5 years, TYVM.

Ahh one of those.

[jj1000]

Someone still has a chip on his shoulder!
How many years has it been since you didn’t get in?
Get over it, it’s not healthy

Ahh one of those.

Why is everyone trying to trigger @YesThatsMe this morning?

[aygart]

Why is everyone trying to trigger @YesThatsMe this morning?

He triggered me when he was oiver on lashon hara/motzi shem ra on an entire group that includes many talmidei chachomim

[jj1000]

oiver on lashon hara/motzi shem ra

Fwiw I didn't see any lh/mr, a negative attitude, sure. But maybe I'm just ignorant of his deeper meaning.

[YesThatsMe]

Why is everyone trying to trigger @YesThatsMe this morning?

Because he’s dared to bring up one of the most sensitive and deepest dark feelings thousands of Press graduates around the world think about but don’t have the courage to face. It’s a process that IMO has begun about 5-7 years ago (with the establishment of true full service Chutznik Yeshiva programs in Yerushalayim) and is still unfolding and can perhaps take many more years to pan out fully.

But I hope that my children, and the children of all my fellow Yeshiva friends (yes, all considered the “top guy” in their day) will be part of a generation that doesn’t feel pressured to be in a certain Mossad because that’s what’s expected of them, but rather learn where they truly belong without being make to feel like a סוג ב׳ Bochur. (During Beis Medrash years, whilst in Yerushalayim, and especially when back for Shidduchim).

[aygart]

I'm sorry that you didn't have the backbone Or self-confidence to go to the place that was right for you

[jj1000]

I'm sorry that you didn't have the backbone Or self-confidence to go to the place that was right for you

Again, ignorant here, but this is how it works in systems. Especially when shidduchim are involved. And parents. And friends. And societal expectations.

Not going against the norm is sometimes bad and sometimes good.

Not fair to blame a teen for choosing a yeshiva his community expects him to be in when other ones are looked down upon.

[aygart]

Again, ignorant here, but this is how it works in systems. Especially when shidduchim are involved. And parents. And friends. And societal expectations.

Not going against the norm is sometimes bad and sometimes good.

Not fair to blame a teen for choosing a yeshiva his community expects him to be in when other ones are looked down upon.

I have nothing against someone who follows the pressure but they should realize that it is on them and not everyone else. I know plenty of people who ended up I yeshivos that were not compatible for them for a wide range of reasons. That it wasn't for them isn't a reason to be bitter and knock everyone else.

[YesThatsMe]

I'm sorry that you didn't have the backbone Or self-confidence to go to the place that was right for you

Yup. Tell that to an impressionable 16-17-18 year old who is always trying to be the best Bochur he can from his Cheder days, and is constantly fed with "Of course you'll go to Brisk like so and so and so and so and so (insert all the family/people you spend your life looking up too)", and then you get in right away, and then you arrive and find no structure, no Mashgiach, no Va'ad (let alone no gashmiyus, which now starts to become a part of your responsibility) and for a large majority, no shiur! But you need to keep feeding yourself the coolaid because otherwise you'll realize you've been living a contradiction.

[aygart]

Yup. Tell that to an impressionable 16-17-18 year old who is always trying to be the best Bochur he can from his Cheder days, and is constantly fed with "Of course you'll go to Brisk like so and so and so and so and so (insert all the family/people you spend your life looking up too)", and then you get in right away, and then you arrive and find no structure, no Mashgiach, no Va'ad (let alone no gashmiyus, which now starts to become a part of your responsibility) and for a large majority, no shiur! But you need to keep feeding yourself the coolaid because otherwise you'll realize you've been living a contradiction.

I have nothing against someone who follows the pressure but they should realize that it is on them and not everyone else. I know plenty of people who ended up I yeshivos that were not compatible for them for a wide range of reasons. That it wasn't for them isn't a reason to be bitter and knock everyone else.

[YesThatsMe]

I have nothing against someone who follows the pressure but they should realize that it is on them and not everyone else. I know plenty of people who ended up I yeshivos that were not compatible for them for a wide range of reasons. That it wasn't for them isn't a reason to be bitter and knock everyone else.

I didn't knock anyone, all I said is that we don't have the monopoly we think we do over who is the epitome Talmidei Chachomim in Yerushalayim. Read what I wrote.

[aygart]

But you need to keep feeding yourself the coolaid because otherwise you'll realize you've been living a contradiction.

I fully understand how it is not a setting that is right for everyone, but I don't see how coming to that realization would mean living a contradiction. Those who it was a good setting for often do very well and that is why many rabbeim who feel that a boy is able to swim on his own without the structure pulling him or who don't realize the issues with the lack of structure because it didn't affect them will push boys there. That it doesn't work just means it didn't work fr this boy and not that it contradicts everything he's been living. That is ridiculous.
And no I didn't learn in Brisk when I was learning in EY over 25 years ago.

[aygart]

I didn't knock anyone, all I said is that we don't have the monopoly we think we do over who is the epitome Talmidei Chachomim in Yerushalayim. Read what I wrote.

He wrote nothing about a monopoly. He simply used Talmidei Chachomim on Rechov Press as an example. You had a problem with using the term altogether and started writing about numbers of blat etc.