Why is there so much lashon hora on here about restaurants (and other things)

[AsherO]

And because no one has mentioned it iirc - it is ossur to believe the reviews you read, only to take them into account without believing them. Just saying...

Source? As if someone can really control that. You’ll tell me something totally plausible and I have no objective reason to believe I’m not getting the whole story, but I won’t believe you because I’m not allowed.

[AsherO]

Does it make no difference where people are talking about an establishment and nobody knows or cares who the owners are?

[imayid2]

yes. Maybe there is a gun off screen? How are you supposed to know the whole picture without being there?

There are cases that one is allowed to believe LH. Such as when there is סימנים ניכרים or he’s hearing from someone who is נאמן עליו כהי תרי. I’d think that when presented with clear evidence that it would fall into that category. (לימודי זכות may still be required. But that’s when presented real negative info about someone. When it’s about the quality of his merchandise it probably doesn’t apply.)

[madhocker]

Source? As if someone can really control that. You’ll tell me something totally plausible and I have no objective reason to believe I’m not getting the whole story, but I won’t believe you because I’m not allowed.

This is clear in CC Klal 6.

[madhocker]

Another point to consider- even if we were to consider this a case of Toeles, the CC clearly writes that one may not say the LH unless he first tries to be מוכיח the person. So in this case, if a eatery served you a subpar meal, we could only entertain spreading that fact after first speaking to the manager and telling him our concerns, and suggesting how he can improve.

Besides for being a תנאי in hilchos LH, it is also the mentschlach way to act to another yid. Why would we besmirch another yid and cause him potential agmas nefesh, if we can help him improve and be successful?

[madhocker]

I am clueless to where your assertion that in such a scenario where one is causing zero damage by reading something which was posted ltoeles should be prohibited. Do you have a source for such a thing?

-1.
I am with @aygart on this.
See CC 3,6. See explanation in BMC that the etzem negative dibbur against another yid is assur, even if it causes zero damage.
Even if the dibbur was said ltoeles for one person, if for the second person it is not, it would be lifnei iver to tell it to him, being machshil him in shmiya.

Just bumped into this being said in the Dirshu CC klal 3 number 14, (although he does not bring a source for it).

[imayid2]

-1.
I am with @aygart on this.
See CC 3,6. See explanation in BMC that the etzem negative dibbur against another yid is assur, even if it causes zero damage.
Even if the dibbur was said ltoeles for one person, if for the second person it is not, it would be lifnei iver to tell it to him, being machshil him in shmiya.

You are conflating real negative dibbur, with info which isn’t necessarily negative about him, but may be damaging. I am arguing that saying that a restaurant is mediocre is the latter.

[imayid2]

Another point to consider- even if we were to consider this a case of Toeles, the CC clearly writes that one may not say the LH unless he first tries to be מוכיח the person. So in this case, if a eatery served you a subpar meal, we could only entertain spreading that fact after first speaking to the manager and telling him our concerns, and suggesting how he can improve.

There is no din תוכחה on someone for not serving 5 star food. So I’m not sure strictly speaking that tnai would apply.

[Gvann]

There is no din תוכחה on someone for not serving 5 star food. So I’m not sure strictly speaking that tnai would apply.

there were definitely stories posted on this thread even of owners that may need toichacha like not serving food etc.. that is definitely something that is not yashar in business. though yes a burger not up to your liking is not the same thing

[madhocker]

There is no din תוכחה on someone for not serving 5 star food. So I’m not sure strictly speaking that tnai would apply.

My post was about writing that you were served a subpar meal. That is very different from 'not 5 star'.
So we agree- if the post is that the food is not outstanding, and will cause no היזק, it should be muttar. But many reviews are rating food as 2/10 וכדומה, or about horrible service, which are not to be equated with 'not 5 star'. You agree that in this case it would be assur without מוכיח תחילה. Do I understand you correctly?

[madhocker]

I am arguing that saying that a restaurant is mediocre is the latter.

Even a restaurant that markets itself as high-end?

[imayid2]

My post was about writing that you were served a subpar meal. That is very different from 'not 5 star'.
So we agree- if the post is that the food is not outstanding, and will cause no היזק, it should be muttar

Just to be clear that we are talking about the same case, I’m talking about that it will cause hezek, because people looking for a “great” experience may now look elsewhere. And for the reader to whom it’s irrelevant, then he isn’t really someone to whom the info would be considered LH.

But many reviews are rating food as 2/10 וכדומה, or about horrible service, which are not to be equated with 'not 5 star'. You agree that in this case it would be assur without מוכיח תחילה. Do I understand you correctly?

If there is a serious chance that you’d achieve the תועלת for the audience by speaking to the owner about it the certainly that be required, in all scenarios. If not, then I’d assume תוכחה is only required if the guy is being oiver an issur (that’s the context).  I’m not quite sure that having lousy food/service cuts it.

[imayid2]

Even a restaurant that markets itself as high-end?

Maybe, IDK

[aygart]

Maybe, IDK

Wait, you thought this was about a fast food joint not being like a high end restaurant?

[imayid2]

Wait, you thought this was about a fast food joint not being like a high end restaurant?

about any restaurant not being particularly good for whatever reason

[aygart]

about any restaurant not being particularly good for whatever reason

And saying it is BAD for the type of food/service is it marketed as?

[imayid2]

And saying it is BAD for the type of food/service is it marketed as?

I specifically chose the example at the top. I don't have a clear answer on when exactly in turns into something reflecting very negatively on the owner.