CV's Copy - ISRAEL-HAMAS

[Dan]

Did he

Without a doubt. To be fair, both the US and Israel hoped to come to some sort hostage deal, but it has been obvious for some time that Hamas had no intention of making a deal. Israel would have gone in before Ramadan at the end of February if not for US pressure.

[Just A Jew]

Is that what they said?

I didn't read the report, just the CNN article you posted. Here's what it quoted from the actual report (bold mine):

“Given the nature of the conflict in Gaza, with Hamas seeking to hide behind civilian populations and infrastructure and expose them to Israeli military action, as well as the lack of USG personnel on the ground in Gaza, it is difficult to assess or reach conclusive findings on individual incidents. Nevertheless, given Israel’s significant reliance on U.S.-made defense articles, it is reasonable to assess that defense articles covered under NSM-20 have been used by Israeli security forces since October 7 in instances inconsistent with its IHL obligations or with established best practices for mitigating civilian harm,” the report said.

I interpreted that to mean a) we cannot confirm a single instance in which they actually violated IHL, and b) we think it's reasonable to say that our weapons were used to violate IHL. Do you have a better way to interpret it?

[CountValentine]

That is for sure. Now he is doing his best to ensure that everyone hates him. That doesn't mean that he isn't currently capitulating to the fringes.

Can we consider the possibility he truly believes Israel is fighting the war the wrong way? Is a politician capable of doing what they think is right?

[Just A Jew]

Can we consider the possibility he truly believes Israel is fighting the war the wrong way? Is a politician capable of doing what they think is right?

Has he proposed a better way to actually fight the war? I mean actually fight, not call a ceasefire and stand down.

[CountValentine]

I interpreted that to mean a) we cannot confirm a single instance in which they actually violated IHL, and b) we think it's reasonable to say that our weapons were used to violate IHL. Do you have a better way to interpret it?

Not better, just different. The statement speaks for itself.
There are ten or more words we would have to clarify in the statement. Maybe next Wednesday.

[CountValentine]

Has he proposed a better way to actually fight the war? I mean actually fight, not call a ceasefire and stand down.

I believe several times they talked about less massive bombs and more ground offensives.

[Just A Jew]

Not better, just different. The statement speaks for itself.
There are ten or more words we would have to clarify in the statement. Maybe next Wednesday.

The statement doesn't really speak for itself, IMO. It's ambiguous at best, and speaking with a forked tongue at worst. I can't see another way to read it, so if you could help translate, I'd appreciate it. I really am trying to see another way to read this thing.

[aygart]

I believe several times they talked about less massive bombs and more ground offensives.

And more Israeli casualties

[CountValentine]

The statement doesn't really speak for itself, IMO. It's ambiguous at best, and speaking with a forked tongue at worst. I can't see another way to read it, so if you could help translate, I'd appreciate it. I really am trying to see another way to read this thing.

"difficult to assess or reach conclusive findings on individual incidents" - yeah, they did it, but we don't want to say that.

[CountValentine]

And more Israeli casualties

Yes more soldiers will die with ground operations.
More civilians will be saved also.
As I have stated many times that is difficult calculation every civilized country makes.
I would never want to make that decision.

[aygart]

Yes more soldiers will die with ground operations.
More civilians will be saved also.
As I have stated many times that is difficult calculation every civilized country makes.
I would never want to make that decision.

Neither would I, but setting aside whether it is right or moral international law definitely does not require a country to sacrifice its soldiers to save civilians from being collateral damage from a fight with embedded enemies

[CountValentine]

Neither would I, but setting aside whether it is right or moral international law definitely does not require a country to sacrifice its soldiers to save civilians from being collateral damage from a fight with embedded enemies

You can be 100% right but that doesn't solve the US/Israel problem.

[Just A Jew]

"difficult to assess or reach conclusive findings on individual incidents" - yeah, they did it, but we don't want to say that.

Fair interpretation.

Do we not want to say it because we're protecting an ally, or because it's stuff we've done, too, and we aren't ready to open up that can of worms?

[CountValentine]

Fair interpretation.

Do we not want to say it because we're protecting an ally, or because it's stuff we've done, too, and we aren't ready to open up that can of worms?

They both need to realize this is hurting both countries.
US needs to understand Israel has to eliminate Hamas the best they can.
Israel needs to understand they need to protect civilians better.
From there they both need to get on the same page and keep it private.

[Just A Jew]

Israel needs to understand they need to protect civilians better.

You keep saying this like it's an actual thing. I have yet to see anyone give a single example of any metric in the history of the world where a war was fought with more care towards avoiding civilian casualties.

[CountValentine]

You keep saying this like it's an actual thing. I have yet to see anyone give a single example of any metric in the history of the world where a war was fought with more care towards avoiding civilian casualties.

You want to keep arguing if something was or wasn't done. That gets you nowhere. 
Anyone can use numbers to prove anything they want.
Israel right now is using less bombs and more ground troops if Rafah. Hopefully this brings the US/Israel closer to the same page.

[Just A Jew]

You want to keep arguing if something was or wasn't done. That gets you nowhere. 
Anyone can use numbers to prove anything they want.

That's the amazing part. Anyone can use numbers to prove anything, and yet no one has come up with numbers for this. But we still talk about it like it's an attainable standard to hold Israel to.

[CountValentine]

That's the amazing part. Anyone can use numbers to prove anything, and yet no one has come up with numbers for this. But we still talk about it like it's an attainable standard to hold Israel to.

If you want to search, I did post a couple articles about this bit don't remember which thread.

[Just A Jew]

If you want to search, I did post a couple articles about this bit don't remember which thread.

After shabbos

[Dan]

Without a doubt. To be fair, both the US and Israel hoped to come to some sort hostage deal, but it has been obvious for some time that Hamas had no intention of making a deal. Israel would have gone in before Ramadan at the end of February if not for US pressure.

https://twitter.com/jacobkornbluh/status/1788725954392592444?t=8zYQgRjgbD2_yRIzFIAIfQ&s=19