CV's Copy - ISRAEL-HAMAS

[Just A Jew]

Sounds like someone not understanding. 

Here's the quote:

We are especially focused on the end-use of the 2,000-lb bombs and the impact they could have in dense urban settings as we have seen in other parts of Gaza.

In other words, we know the only way to destroy those tunnels is with these bombs, which is why we were going to send them, but we don't like the collateral damage, so we're not sending them now.

Now, if rockets are being fired at Israeli soldiers and civilians from these tunnels, the US is essentially saying to Israel, "Our support for you in ironclad, but we value Gazan civilian lives more than the lives of your soldiers and civilians."

In the past, you and I have read things differently and you were able to give an alternate interpretation that, while I may not have agreed with, I could understand. I'm asking you to please spell out an alternative to how I'm seeing this.

[Just A Jew]

The tunnels are the biggest part of this war.

But it's not a good comparison. The reason we had tunnel rats is because our bombing was ineffective against the tunnels. With today's technology, that is no longer the case.

[CountValentine]

In other words, we know the only way to destroy those tunnels is with these bombs,

The only way to destroy the tunnels is with 2k bombs? Where did you get that from?

Now, if rockets are being fired at Israeli soldiers and civilians from these tunnels,

Wait, the rockets being fired at Israel is from tunnels 100+ feet under the ground? Are these like silos?

[CountValentine]

But it's not a good comparison. The reason we had tunnel rats is because our bombing was ineffective against the tunnels. With today's technology, that is no longer the case.

Actually a lot had to do where they were located. One was built right below a US military camp, or the camp was built on top of it.

[aygart]

I am talking about the US military personal that went into 100 times more complex tunnels in Vietnam.

So then yes. Expecting Israel to do that to their soldiers is a non starter.

[Yehuda57]

Here's the quote:

In other words, we know the only way to destroy those tunnels is with these bombs, which is why we were going to send them, but we don't like the collateral damage, so we're not sending them now.

Now, if rockets are being fired at Israeli soldiers and civilians from these tunnels, the US is essentially saying to Israel, "Our support for you in ironclad, but we value Gazan civilian lives more than the lives of your soldiers and civilians."

In the past, you and I have read things differently and you were able to give an alternate interpretation that, while I may not have agreed with, I could understand. I'm asking you to please spell out an alternative to how I'm seeing this.

Israel makes the same decision every single day, otherwise they'd have long carpet bombed the place. This war is a constant battle of deciding what attack justifies the collateral damage. That the US draws the line differently to Israel doesn't necessarily mean they value Gazan civilians more than Israeli civilians. I'm inclined to agree that they are getting it majorly wrong now for political reasons rather than moral ones, but it is quite simple to read things differently.

[Yehuda57]

I am talking about the US military personal that went into 100 times more complex tunnels in Vietnam.

And has America ever done that again?

[CountValentine]

So then yes. Expecting Israel to do that to their soldiers is a non starter.

I believe that figure you stated was for one unit. IIRC the overall rate was bad but nowhere near 3%.

[CountValentine]

And has America ever done that again?

Have they ever ran into anything like that again? When they are hiding out in mountains you just bomb them all you want. No civilians are around.

[Just A Jew]

Actually a lot had to do where they were located. One was built right below a US military camp, or the camp was built on top of it.

It had much more to do with our ineffectiveness. We declared that we would bomb the heck outta them, and it just didn't work. We kept missing the tunnels.

[CountValentine]

It had much more to do with our ineffectiveness. We declared that we would bomb the heck outta them, and it just didn't work. We kept missing the tunnels.

I think you are getting mixed up. The massive carpet-bombing campaigns was to try and get them to capitulate right away.

Here is the bottom line.
There are military targets underneath densely populated areas. The US does not want THEIR 2k bombs used there. Now you can agree or disagree but that is what it boils down to. 20 pages of all this other stuff is interesting but doesn't change that fact. 

[Just A Jew]

Have they ever ran into anything like that again? When they are hiding out in mountains you just bomb them all you want. No civilians are around.

We had them both in Afghanistan and against ISIS in Iraq. I'm sure you're familiar with the MOAB.

[Yehuda57]

Have they ever ran into anything like that again? When they are hiding out in mountains you just bomb them all you want. No civilians are around.

FWIU there were tunnels in Afghanistan and Iraq, though not on the same level of size and complexity.

[CountValentine]

I'm sure you're familiar with the MOAB.

Nope, only familiar with the MOP. 

[Just A Jew]

I think you are getting mixed up. The massive carpet-bombing campaigns was to try and get them to capitulate right away.

Quick Google search confirms what I said, but it's really irrelevant.

Here is the bottom line.
There are military targets underneath densely populated areas. The US does not want THEIR 2k bombs used there. Now you can agree or disagree but that is what it boils down to. 20 pages of all this other stuff is interesting but doesn't change that fact.

OK, that's most definitely our right, but then we cannot say we are giving Israel everything they need to defend themselves. This is a pretty big exception.

[CountValentine]

OK, that's most definitely our right, but then we cannot say we are giving Israel everything they need to defend themselves. This is a pretty big exception.

"defend themselves" is being looked at differently.

[CountValentine]

Quick Google search confirms what I said, but it's really irrelevant.

Operation Rolling Thunder

[Yehuda57]

"defend themselves" is being looked at differently.

After 6 months of looking it at it differently themselves

[Just A Jew]

Operation Rolling Thunder

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder

The only thing I see about tunnels is that villages moved into them to escape the bombing, so obviously this operation wasn't targeting the tunnels.

[CountValentine]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder

The only thing I see about tunnels is that villages moved into them to escape the bombing, so obviously this operation wasn't targeting the tunnels.

Correct. That is the point I was making. The massive bombing campaigns were not targeting tunnels.