Author Topic: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel  (Read 4774 times)

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in/visiting EY
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2024, 03:30:31 PM »
Sometimes we can fool ourselves into thinking that this is a good place to discuss hashkafa. We can even invest in a thought out post to discuss something. Then somebody comes along and diverts the whole conversation to a fourth grade level mudsling.
:'(
You got that right...

Offline Traveler718

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2024, 05:13:51 PM »
I once read that a Yerushalmi asked Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach if he has to tear kriah when going to the Kosel for the first time in more than 30 days, since he heard that there are opinions that being surrounded by the churban everywhere you look exempts one from having to tear kriah.

Rav Shlomo Zalman responded that living in Yerushalayim and not going to the Kosel monthly itself is grounds to tear kriah!

Offline Definitions2

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2024, 06:22:58 PM »
What makes a farm in EY better for you than elsewhere?
Are you ready to get really familiar with all the מצוות התליות בארץ involved with owning a farm?
Because it's EY.

Absolutely. It would be a privilege. To clarify the farm wouldn't be for a primary income.

Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in/visiting EY
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2024, 06:36:28 PM »
i am REFFERING to young couples getting married in past few years and yes FACT out of 400 girls in wolf seminary in bnei brak 175 went to hi tech course 60 accounting or so and not even one ganenet. It was first time ever that there are no ganenets.
You are a diiferent age bracket and those who move out of yerushalaim bnei brak are those who dont work in offices generally as there aren't many jobs in periphery

I am aware of all you stated, and still maintain that you are generalising from limited data.
I know numerous native israeli couples 25,26 and under that do not fit the financial and societal profile you wrote about.
"Frumy" girls from KS, JLM... (I happen not to have much connection to BB). Boys who went to BME, Yad Halevi... or like yeshivos.
I know many people living in Neve Yaakov, Achisamach, KS... I guess I may also be generalising from the people I am connected with - but I'm sure theres place for the disscusion of what is the "average" young chareidi couple...

@YesThatsMe sorry for triggering you. I could have written the name of any yeshiva, I just choose the one closest to Geula  ;D (never learned there or any related yeshiva, I could count on the fingers of one hand freinds who learned there particularly, lav davka agree on the mehalach of boys going there anyway... and my reference was meant to be the Talmidei Chachamim there - like RAYS and his sons - not the young talmidim from the US).

@HudZ It's not specificaly you or what you wrote that "triggered" and even then I was refering mostly to the first part of my post. As I posted earlier, I am very aware of the difficulties that are caused by the travel disruptions. My shver really truely may not make it back to his home to make the seder (Not booked on ELAL). My chavrusa will likely need to prepare for pesach in under a week - with a house of lively kids, a pregnant wife, and he missed ordering from all the at or close to cost and/or subsidised sales/chalukas because he was supposed to be flying to his divorced MIL to make the seder for her and her unmarried children (Not booked on ELAL).
With that said, and not trying to criticise anyone in particular or be patronising - Eretz Yisroel niknis beyisurim. This just may be the Yesurim of the people who "havent seen their family in many months"... Making Pesach. In EY. Being independant adults. Leading a seder! (The first seder I led was during corona - and it was AMAZING! I prepared the hagada with a chavrusa - on the phone, of course  ;D and it just felt so good to be able to prepare and give over the messages of emunah and bitachin and yad hashem and hasgacha pratism and mida kneged mida and... in the hagada and since then my wife refuses to go to any other seder! even to her parents who live in walking distance from us).
Most people who "haven't seen their family in many months" likely can see them every day. On Zoom or other like apps. What a bracha! Once "not seeing" meant literaly not seeing. (I know it's not the same as in person...)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2024, 07:30:09 PM by yfr bachur »

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2024, 07:30:59 AM »
Ok... Understood.

I hope I didn't offend you in any way. But that's not how I understood what you said (yfr) at first, as I was just replying to someone who said it's ironic to say 'stuck in Israel'. And I was just saying that there are many ppl who didn't see their family in months, since if their going in for Pesach, they most probably went in for Sukkos as well...
Not at all offended. I am happy for people who are better off provided they don't make assumptions that everyone else can spend like them.
Though while we are at it, the statement, "if their going in for Pesach, they most probably went in for Sukkos as well..." is untrue for anyone in my circles. Where I live, the better-off go once a year, and everyone else averages every three years. (To be fair, the former may only leave once a year for ideological reasons and not for financial reasons, though I heard once person comment that it takes a year to forget how hard it was to travel with the kids last time.)
Quote from: ExGingi
Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Online HudZ

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2024, 08:42:51 AM »
Not at all offended. I am happy for people who are better off provided they don't make assumptions that everyone else can spend like them.
Though while we are at it, the statement, "if their going in for Pesach, they most probably went in for Sukkos as well..." is untrue for anyone in my circles. Where I live, the better-off go once a year, and everyone else averages every three years. (To be fair, the former may only leave once a year for ideological reasons and not for financial reasons, though I heard once person comment that it takes a year to forget how hard it was to travel with the kids last time.)
Beracha V'Hatzlacha. Chag Kosher V'Sameach.
May we all be together in EY B'Karov.
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Offline Sam Finkelstein

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2024, 05:28:29 PM »
Not sure who said it after moving to EY, but it resonates a lot: The thing we miss the most about living in chu'l is the longing for EY!

Having learned (single) in E"Y for 1.5 years about 5 years ago, I remember how hard it was to live there, and how nice it was to go back to the US every Bein Hazmanim (thanks to miles, of course). It was also hard to come back after a few weeks in "luxurious" America. Fun fact: the biggest creature comfort I missed was carpeting, and that's why today I insist on having carpet in my bedroom  :)

I was able to visit twice in the past 2 years, once with my family for a week and another time in-and-out for a Simcha, and I continue feel an intense longing to return. However, it's not easy - practically and financially - and I don't know when the next time is.

But at least I have this in Chu"l.
Formula for success: rise early, work hard, strike oil. –J. Paul Getty

Online HudZ

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2024, 07:24:30 PM »
But at least I have this in Chu"l.
The yearning? DDF?
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Offline elazarb

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2024, 10:37:02 PM »
The yearning? DDF?
think he means the carpet

Offline Sam Finkelstein

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2024, 11:09:21 PM »
The yearning? DDF?

The yearning.

think he means the carpet

That too  ;D
Formula for success: rise early, work hard, strike oil. –J. Paul Getty

Online DaasTora

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2024, 12:32:13 AM »
If it now takes efforts by ehrilce Yidden like R' Meilich Biderman or Naftali Kempe to bring back some Ta'am in that, it means that we still yearn for it, but the fault is not ours.
Seriously? You put them together in on sentence? כבוד התורה!

Offline Definitions2

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2024, 01:53:19 AM »
Seriously? You put them together in on sentence? כבוד התורה!
That's exactly the point. I don't see that as an issue.

Offline LongTimeLurker

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2024, 04:15:22 AM »
1. Can we stop with the zionists did this and the zionists did that. Enough already.
2. to the point of OP (yfr bachur): The world has changed tremendously in the last 20 years. I've been in Israel for a long time. Israel has become much wealthier. It became much more accessible. Air Travel has made the world smaller. 30 years ago no one was flying from Modiin to NJ to work during the week and come home for the weekend, now it's commonplace (or was, until Covid and then the war). That impacts everyone and how we treat things.
3. When you come from abroad, of course you want to go to the kotel, kever rahel, kivrei tzadikim.. You're off your daily routine and that's what you want to do. When you live here, you have to feed your family, pay your bills, go to the doctor.. Unless you deliberately make time for it, it doesn't happen.

Anyway I'm just saying what you're feeling/expressing is fairly normal, we get used to things.

Hag Kasher VSameach to all

Online HudZ

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Re: Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2024, 10:27:31 AM »
Anyway I'm just saying what you're feeling/expressing is fairly normal, we get used to things.
We know it's a normal feeling. That's how Hashem made us, we can adapt to a situation quite quickly. It doesn't mean it's a good thing or the right thing.

After the war started, we (myself at least) were all a little shaken up.
How long did that last? A week? 2 Weeks?
Is it normal? Yes.
Should it be that way? No.

It's up to us, to keep important things in mind and keep invigorating it within ourselves.
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Offline cynic

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Thank You yfr bachur for a very meaningful and thought out post.
I would like to conglomerate what has been discussed here with my two cents added.
To break it down point by point
1. Yearning for Eretz Yisroel
2. The way I view the Israeli perspective.
3. Being "stuck" here.
4. Visiting the Kosel
5. The gashmius in Eretz Yisroel

1. Yearning for Eretz Yisroel
    In Chu"l, EY is much more talked about and dealt with. We are constantly fed stories about Gedolim who wanted to go there, and gave up everything for that. There is no chasuna, bar mitzva, siyum, or kumzitz  that does not have songs of longing for EY as the grand finale. Whereas in EY, comes to curfew and the music... stops. When you say לשנה הבאה בירושלים there is meaning to it. Then your hopes and dreams come true and you got what you always wanted, and move. For the first few weeks, you walk around as if in a dream, and then the freshness wears off, now what? What does one expect to happen? Just like a kid who wanted a new toy, and then gets it, the euphoria goes away after some time.The question is how does one deal with recapturing that feeling.
To speak from personal experience, I remember the first time I came. Before the flight I was reading about EY, listening to songs about EY (highly recommend Eretz Yisroel from Nachum Stark)... couldn't sleep on the  plane .. getting closer.. closer.. when we are able to see from the window (getting goosebumps just writing this).. touchdown, B"H I was zoche for קוממיות לארצינו.. the doors open, I stand in the doorway for a few seconds אווירא דארעא, step on the hallway say שהחיינו בלי שם ומלכות and wonder how ר' יהודה הלוי would been מלכך עפרה if he would have came this way. Go through security, get my luggage and walk out. I'M HERE. I get on the tender to Yerushalayim, ד' אמות, and another and another.. see the ברוכים הבאים.. get to my dira, put my stuff down and go to mincha מודים אנחנו לך. Then comes Shabbos, I feel that Abie Rotenberg didn't half describe the feeling in his song of Yerushalyim. Walking the streets, soaking it all in.. going to the Kosel.. then I got used to being here, having my place my routine. I sometimes ask myself if I really had  a hisragshus about coming or it was all just fluff, but don't really care so much which, מתן שכרה בצדה.
Friends of mine used to not want to go out on YT Sheni so as not to see the cars driving around,   I davkka went felt that I was able to at least bring about the Shabbos feeling again. (Now that I keep one day I don't have that anymore :() Whenever I go someplace new I try to think about the new ד' אמות that I'm getting. When walking by tourists, I sometimes think to myself B"H I have the zchus to live here. I find these in a way to be bandaids, but it helps. Yes, it needs work to keep it up and pushing and reminding, and perhaps leaving once in a while to awaken the freshness.
Just a few eitzas, one should think about what it was about EY that was so important to him. Read through the Kinnos of 9 Av that talk about EY slowly, line by line, trying to get the hargosho of the Rishonim for the desire of EY.  Edit Ruchoma Shain in one of her books discussed this point, she says to help her and her husband to remember the zchus that they have, every morniing they would say "B"H we are in Eretz Yisroel."
(taking a long time to write TBC Be"H)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2024, 01:35:51 PM by cynic »

Offline cynic

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2. The way I view the Israeli perspective.
  Although it is easy to point fingers and blame the Zionim (Yerushalayim: Hachi Chu"l Ba'Aretz), I believe that there is more to it then that. however due to that for the readers here it is not so relevent I decided not to dwell on this point, just to confirm that the problem exists in the Israeli Charedi society as well, forewarned is forearmed.
Instaed I will just mention about the ones who do apprecciate. The ones who say Kol Hakavod that you came, the guy who doesn't believe that Niagra Falls can be anywhere near as awe inspiring as the Baanyas, the ones who feel that their ticket to Olam Haba is that they never left EY (including a Rov who was offered half a million dollars to be mesedar kiddishun in America and refused)
 

Offline lover of truth

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2. The way I view the Israeli perspective.
  Although it is easy to point fingers and blame the Zionim (Yerushalayim: Hachi Chu"l Ba'Aretz), I believe that there is more to it then that. however due to that for the readers here it is not so relevent I decided not to dwell on this point, just to confirm that the problem exists in the Israeli Charedi society as well, forewarned is forearmed.
Instaed I will just mention about the ones who do apprecciate. The ones who say Kol Hakavod that you came, the guy who doesn't believe that Niagra Falls can be anywhere near as awe inspiring as the Baanyas, the ones who feel that their ticket to Olam Haba is that they never left EY (including a Rov who was offered half a million dollars to be mesedar kiddishun in America and refused)
How do you just go and bash a whole community and at the same time preach high levels of spirituality?!!!

Online aygart

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the guy who doesn't believe that Niagra Falls can be anywhere near as awe inspiring as the Baanyas
 

Can you explain the ideological reasoning behind this and why there is even a maala in thinking this way?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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the ones who feel that their ticket to Olam Haba is that they never left EY

This almost sounds more zionist than frum. Why would this trump everything else?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline lover of truth

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This almost sounds more zionist than frum. Why would this trump everything else?
1000
unfortunately some well meaning people believe that living in eretz yisrael is THE most important part of the torah.
They pick up a family of six nice frum succesful kids, a well paying job, supportive kehilla etc. and move.
sadly they end up many times with children OD no parnassah a wrecked shalom bayis and more
R moshe feinsten says that living in EY is a kiyumis so definetly not playing LOTO with your whole ruchniyus
so sad