Have We Lost Our Appreciation for living in and visiting Eretz Yisroel

[YesThatsMe]

I fully understand how it is not a setting that is right for everyone, but I don't see how coming to that realization would mean living a contradiction. Those who it was a good setting for often do very well and that is why many rabbeim who feel that a boy is able to swim on his own without the structure pulling him or who don't realize the issues with the lack of structure because it didn't affect them will push boys there. That it doesn't work just means it didn't work fr this boy and not that it contradicts everything he's been living. That is ridiculous.

Kind of is. Over 95% of guys I was with, at best, plateaued in their Limud and Yiddishkeit whilst there. I will shy away from discussing those who had an outright Yeridah, but maybe 5% had an obvious Aliyah. Today BH I see bochurim going to other Yeshiva's (many of which didn't exist back then) and who come back better, stronger, and more equipped to deal with our generation's unique nisyonos.

[YesThatsMe]

He wrote nothing about a monopoly. He simply used Talmidei Chachomim on Rechov Press as an example. You had a problem with using the term altogether and started writing about numbers of blat etc.

His ( @yfr bachur  ) message was so pure, so true and so insightful, and then he went and killed it for me with that example

[aygart]

Kind of is. Over 95% of guys I was with, at best, plateaued in their Limud and Yiddishkeit whilst there. I will shy away from discussing those who had an outright Yeridah, but maybe 5% had an obvious Aliyah. Today BH I see bochurim going to other Yeshiva's (many of which didn't exist back then) and who come back better, stronger, and more equipped to deal with our generation's unique nisyonos.

Even if they did that does not show any contradiction. Can you explain to me what the contradiction is?

I have seen many boys come back having shtieged and the experience of some self responsibility helped prepare them for married life. Again, that is dependent on each boy by himself and may depend on the yeshiva they went to in the US. THere may very well be some that don't prepare the boys properly.

[YesThatsMe]

And no I didn't learn in Brisk when I was learning in EY over 25 years ago.

Am not sure how much of a thing Brisk was 25 years ago, or for you personally, but how many of your sons/sons in law/grandchildren/brothers in laws/nephews etc. have been since? I'm sure quite enough to make you pretty invested in the Brisk story.

[aygart]

Am not sure how much of a thing Brisk was 25 years ago, or for you personally, but how many of your sons/sons in law/grandchildren/brothers in laws/nephews etc. have been since? I'm sure quite enough to make you pretty invested in the Brisk story.

I have 2 sons and 2 sons in law who learned in EY and none learned in Brisk. Neither did any of my brothers in law other than 2 of 8 by R Dovid. I don't have any nephews or grandchildren old enough for that, but there is a good chance that some of them or my boys who didn't yet reach that age might end up there or that some future sons in law may be talmidim.

[aygart]

His ( @yfr bachur  ) message was so pure, so true and so insightful, and then he went and killed it for me with that example

I understand that you are bitter and have a chip on your shoulder. That is quite obvious.

I feel you would find it beneficial to move on and look at the positives in life.

[cmey]

Kind of is. Over 95% of guys I was with, at best, plateaued in their Limud and Yiddishkeit whilst there. I will shy away from discussing those who had an outright Yeridah, but maybe 5% had an obvious Aliyah. Today BH I see bochurim going to other Yeshiva's (many of which didn't exist back then) and who come back better, stronger, and more equipped to deal with our generation's unique nisyonos.

Some have a yeti dash, some come על מנת כן. The חצר. ‘nuff said. IYKYK.

[Definitions2]

I still want to buy a farm in eretz yisroel. If not a farm then a piece of land that is liveable. So I guess haven't lost my appreciation yet. BUT I haven't lived there for 12 years so idk what would happen.

I wouldn't go to the kosel every day or any other mekomos hakedoshim though.

[imayid2]

I gather Brisk is on rechov Press.
What is on Rechov Yirmiyahu?

[YesThatsMe]

The Zionists no more turned Yerushalayim into a Mecca of vacation, shopping, food, high end living, and boasting rights, than the eggs farmers turned Lakewood into Ir Hamosros. We did it. When the Zionists had movie theaters and what not all over Yerushalayim the frum population stayed far away. When we started putting every frum shtemple on Olam Hazeh, that succeeded in invading our machaneh.

When this weeks Mishpacha has an ad for high end kitchens that proclaims “close the shades, your neighbors are gawking” a feature article on the pilgrimage to Orlando and the ultimate kiddush sheim shomayim of the local frum guy who does hasbarah of frum idiosyncrasies to the local population, and a standing rib roast proclaiming “premuim cuts for premium people” (just to pick examples from one publication) it is sending a message loud an clear: This world is the טרקלין not the פרוזדור. This is the last stop. Indulge in it. Immerse in it.

This outlook has succeeded in completely pervading the vast majority of our machaneh over the last three decades. When we come to Eretz Yisrael we simply import this worldview with us. Is it any wonder that we no longer appreciate the simplicity of the old yishuv, the inherent kedusha of the mekomos hakedoship sans trips and high end kumzitzes? If it’s our טרקלין then it ain’t the פלהדרין של מלך.

The Zionists are an easy scapegoat but we need to look in the mirror and acknowledge that’s it’s no one other than us.

You're mixing things a bit. I'll start by pointing to the Bnei Brak crowd (specifically, the neighborhoods that border Ramat Gan). A lot of the מותרות you see are not limited to Yerushalyim at all, and in fact, in Bnei Brak it has a far more Olam Hazeh "taste" to all these new imported lifestyles. This comes from the fact that the Israeli (and by extension, Chareidi) middle class has grown significantly since the mid 2000's, and the population has never had it so good economically (I'm talking up to Oct. 7 for now).

Many Chutznikim like to convince themselves (from a place of haughtiness) that it is their imported dollars/pounds/euros that keep the local economy going, but this really isn't the case. BMW and Rolex don't operate in Israel for a few of the richer kollel guys. Maybe a meatboard or sourdough guy in Ramat Eshkol do, but Israelis are not needing your shopping in Romema or Mamila to keep the economy going, and not even Sukkos time either.

Yes, the Zionists are to blame for desensitizing us to the Mekomos Hakdoshim, which they defile at every opportunity they have. Whether it's the Kosel, Meron, or simply everywhere they find an old burial site, it is the non-religious Zionists who caused this קרירורת, with time, over time. If it now takes efforts by ehrilce Yidden like R' Meilich Biderman or Naftali Kempe to bring back some Ta'am in that, it means that we still yearn for it, but the fault is not ours.

[YesThatsMe]

I gather Brisk is on rechov Press.
What is on Rechov Yirmiyahu?

Gur. They have serious Talmidie Chachomin, but many find it hard to admit that.

[CountValentine]

Why is everyone trying to trigger @YesThatsMe this morning?

They need someone to take their anger out on. 

[Definitions2]

The Zionists are an easy scapegoat but we need to look in the mirror and acknowledge that’s it’s no one other than us.

+1000
One of the things that trigger me. Some may say they're making the chol into kadosh or something along those lines from chassidus. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see through that.

I don't expect people to torture themselves. If someone says this is considered torturing themselves it doesn't either take a rocket scientist to see through that.

Just like the ideals from generations ago don't seem to be as it's supposed to be, from what I see, so too today.

It makes my life easier but baffles and makes me quite upset at times.

[Sam 77]

This thread is going to be fun! Following with a BIG bucket of popcorn
Thank you @yfr bachur

[UKinNYS]

Not sure who said it after moving to EY, but it resonates a lot: The thing we miss the most about living in chu'l is the longing for EY!

[cmey]

Not sure who said it after moving to EY, but it resonates a lot: The thing we miss the most about living in chu'l is the longing for EY!

Or as they say “ Your Aliyah should have a נשמה”
Unfortunately gives new meaning to
ונתרחקנו מעל אדמתינו

[HudZ]

I personally cannot relate to the 'loss of appreciation', as I haven't been living in EY for 12 years or even close. My longing to live and visit EY is very strong, and currently, I don't have much time to travel. But if someone asked me today, 'You have one place to choose, where would you want to go, I have no doubt about it that it would to EY. I haven't gone to EY many times, so I think I can safely say that my appreciation for EY is BH still there...

Your point is a great one, though it is really applicable to all areas of our Avodas Hashem, how often do we stop and take a moment to think about what we are doing before we put on our Tefillin? That first time as a 13 year old, with our New pair of Tefilin, we're so proud to do this mitzvah for the very first time, we do it with much excitement and vigor...   But now, when we put on our (Talis) and Tefillin, do we really take even a small moment to think about what we are doing, before putting on out Tefillin, or is it CH'V just done by rote, as our daily routine? (Rhetorical question.) I gave Tefillin as an example, but from day to day, whenever we're doing mitzvos, do we have that excitement? That vigor? ...

[EliJelly]

I still want to buy a farm in eretz yisroel. If not a farm then a piece of land that is liveable. So I guess haven't lost my appreciation yet. BUT I haven't lived there for 12 years so idk what would happen.

What makes a farm in EY better for you than elsewhere? Are you ready to get really familiar with all the מצוות התליות בארץ involved with owning a farm?

[HudZ]

Also, @yfr bachur , can you please explain the connection between what I said (regarding those who want to leave EY so they can be together with family for YT) and you speaking about the Chashivus of EY...

Did you make a neder that you won't be able to leave EY your entire life. It definitely sounded that way, the way you wrote that you know you may never see your parents again in your life (very strong words in my opinion...)

[Moshe Green]

Don't kick yourself for losing appreciation of EY.

It's called life.

When you are a Bochur you have almost no responsibility's and can just take off a Seder to go visit Mama Rochel or the Kosel.

When you are married with kids your lucky if you make it to Shachris on time or don't have to rush out to take care of them.

This isn't losing appreciation but moving onto the next stage in life.

When a Jew chooses to go to J-lem for Succos instead of Cancun he's saying that he wishes he can be Oleh Regel but there's no Beis Hamikdash. Sure he's enjoying the scene, the tourist attractions, (the hotels ), and the food. But his heart is bringing him here.

Life is tough and we need to make choices that are not always the best for our Ruchnius/ideologogy. But we do the best we can.

I have a friend that makes it his business to visit the Kosel every month. Its like a 3 hour trip for him but he does it. But it's a sacrifice for him, his family and his learning.

Try to make a time (even once every 3/6/12 months) that you'll do these things and those times will be more meaningful than 100 times you went as a Bochur.