CV's Copy - ISRAEL-HAMAS

[DaasTora]

I think basically everyone agrees with both points. But perhaps they will have a different name.

I’m afraid, a stronger mission too. H”Y. Historically, war and decimation have built the strongest warriors.

[Chuchum Ainer]

....

Besides, although Israel has been better this time around than they have in the past, they have shown weakness from day 1. For instance, telegraphing their every move (to protect civilians) and allowing Hamas leaders to run and hide.

Agree with your post. I'll add,

The weakness isn't only in the actual war but in the PR war too. After Israel struck the World Kitchen workers, 1) they apologized repeatedly, 2) Israeli and other news sites are reporting on how awful it was 3) The Israeli narrative of the "reason" for the error is immediately given as a lack of care/field commanders doing whatever they want.
Meanwhile, the info that Hamas gunmen had (earlier) been on and around those vehicles was saved for the next day, after everyone already moved on.

Why not immediately release that info? (Yes, they knew it at that point, that was why they struck those vehicles ) Maybe note that it's a freaking war zone, and if Hamas would only surrender these people wouldn't have died!?

A few days after Oct 7, a Hamas spokesperson explained, sincerely, that they had intel that the Zionists were about to attack them, so they preemptively defended themselves. If only Israel had half as much confidence in its truths as Hamas has in its lies....

And then you have clowns like this guy arguing with a straight face that the PR war is the MORE IMPORTANT war. I guess if only Israel had more respect from France or something, Hamas wouldn't have attacked, Iran wouldn't have attacked....
https://alighthouse.substack.com/p/weve-been-fighting-the-wrong-war https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/go-long-against-iran

[yfr bachur]

I find this bickering about the PR war, is there a seperate one, should israel care about it... to be excedingly simplistic and silly.

Objectively, Oct 07 was a "win" in the PR war.
So would be an Iraninan Nuke attack, or terrorists running wild on the streets of TA shecting people.
Is that a "win" you want?

If israel disregards the PR war to the point that it loses all internationa legitimacy, leading to arms embargos, and even international boots on the ground imposing a solution to the conflict -
Is that a "win" you want?

There is one "war". The long term ability of Israel to defend itself.
Everything else is a front in that war.

[Chuchum Ainer]

I find this bickering about the PR war, is there a seperate one, should israel care about it... to be excedingly simplistic and silly.

Objectively, Oct 07 was a "win" in the PR war.
So would be an Iraninan Nuke attack, or terrorists running wild on the streets of TA shecting people.
Is that a "win" you want?

If israel disregards the PR war to the point that it loses all internationa legitimacy, leading to arms embargos, and even international boots on the ground imposing a solution to the conflict -
Is that a "win" you want?

There is one "war". The long term ability of Israel to defend itself.
Everything else is a front in that war.

Caring about people's reactions on twitter harms Israel's long-term ability to defend itself.

[Yehuda57]

I find this bickering about the PR war, is there a seperate one, should israel care about it... to be excedingly simplistic and silly.

Objectively, Oct 07 was a "win" in the PR war.
So would be an Iraninan Nuke attack, or terrorists running wild on the streets of TA shecting people.
Is that a "win" you want?

If israel disregards the PR war to the point that it loses all internationa legitimacy, leading to arms embargos, and even international boots on the ground imposing a solution to the conflict -
Is that a "win" you want?

There is one "war". The long term ability of Israel to defend itself.
Everything else is a front in that war.

PR is marketing. Successful marketing markets the actual product and its strengths. When you market your product in ways that aren't true to appease the customers, you might gain short term success, but soon enough they see through the lies and you will fail. And if you try change your product to do things it cannot do to match with your marketing, you'll end up in the same place.

Israel shouldn't abandon PR, they should make sure its PR matches what its war is: saving lives. Instead, they are changing their operations so it will look good for their PR, or in other words:

Caring about people's reactions on twitter harms Israel's long-term ability to defend itself.

והוא לא תצלח

[CountValentine]

PR is marketing. Successful marketing markets the actual product and its strengths.

This is what they are failing at.

[zh cohen]

Historically, war and decimation have built the strongest warriors.

Which is why Germany and Japan hate the US and Allied countries so much, right?

[DaasTora]

Which is why Germany and Japan hate the US and Allied countries so much, right?

Nazi Germany was a direct result of WWI decimation. According to your reasoning Germany should love the USSR too because they caused them even more decimation. Japan and Germany like the USA for very different reasons.

[yfr bachur]

Caring about people's reactions on twitter harms Israel's long-term ability to defend itself.

Yes and No.
The transient reaction on twitter,Yes, You're right
The longer term domestic political pressures that peoples reactions on twitter create on allied govts - Israel MUST care about this.

The point that seems to be being pushed here is if Israel would be better at the PR game, then it would have carte blanch to do what it wants/needs to do. IMO This is wishful thinking at best.
I dont see any PR spin that would allow Israel to truly carpet bomb Gaza - even if they could prove that that is what will bring hamas to capitulation.
The world isnt going to buy what you are selling if you massacre 100s of schoolchildren to rescue a couple of hostages.
I dont care how many hostages there are, or how bad hamas is, or how much the "civilians" are complicit in terrorism, the PR front  is essential to the long term ability of israel to ensure its own security, and some times you are going to have to take the L in short term operations and possibly even refrain from certain essential ops to get the win in the long term.

[Chuchum Ainer]

The point that seems to be being pushed here is if Israel would be better at the PR game, then it would have carte blanch to do what it wants/needs to do. IMO This is wishful thinking at best.

That's definitely nowhere near any points I'm pushing, I think it fits more with your general feeling that Israel's operational tactics are subservient to how successful their PR/diplomacy game is. My general view is the opposite, a hyperbolic way to frame it is that if Israel would act like they had carte blanch, they wouldn't need a PR game. Though of course that's an exaggeration.

I dont see any PR spin that would allow Israel to truly carpet bomb Gaza - even if they could prove that that is what will bring hamas to capitulation.
The world isnt going to buy what you are selling if you massacre 100s of schoolchildren to rescue a couple of hostages.
I dont care how many hostages there are, or how bad hamas is, or how much the "civilians" are complicit in terrorism, the PR front  is essential to the long term ability of israel to ensure its own security, and some times you are going to have to take the L in short term operations and possibly even refrain from certain essential ops to get the win in the long term.

Look, there's a lot to discuss here. I don't think we are disagreeing on tactics as much as on a different general view on how Israel needs to defend itself, and how much world condemnation does or does not matter.

I'll just leave a few points to ponder.
1) You say possibly even refrain from certain essential ops: The definition of essential is that you cannot refrain from them. Israel understood that in 1967, in 1981, and in 2007.
2) Israel should definitely fight on the PR front (and Eylon Levy is amazing). But part of what needs to change is they need to stop apologizing and start pushing back. An example is their apologetic and guilty-looking response after the (tragic) strike on the aid workers.
3) Think about how a bunch of countries tried getting the UN to condemn Israel after the Entebbe rescue. The resolution failed, but so did a US and UK resolution condemning international piracy. Should Israel have refrained from the op as it would ruin all their African relations?
4) Did you know that Israel never actually annexed East Jerusalem? If you don't argue for your own side, you cannot expect anyone to support you.
5) Suppose Israel can score points with the US, UK, France, and Germany by not retaliating against Iran. Which option serves its "long-term" goals better, attacking or not attacking?

I'm not as eloquent or concise as Yehuda57, but I hope that helps.

ETA: East

[CountValentine]

Did he want to cross through the middle of the march? @yelped

https://twitter.com/guypbenson/status/1781075881634550035

[yelped]

Did he want to cross through the middle of the march? @yelped

Don't know, but it fits in the pattern of UK police enforcement if you've been following. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. Besides the other pattern that Pro Hamas protests are always violent tending as opposed to pro Israel protests.

[Yehuda57]

Did he want to cross through the middle of the march? @yelped

The marches are not on set paths known beforehand. Not like they had a permit, got the roads blocked, and he came trying to break through.

The context is that these marches have been happening weekly, they are dangerous and not at all controlled, but the police chief keeps saying that they are totally safe. But they are not safe and Jews have been harassed and attacked.

And Jews have been arrested just for being there, while others who harassed Jews were ignored, as you can see in the video the guy threatening him right in front of the police and they don't say a thing.

It's really a mess

[Euclid]

I understand this guy was trying to make a point, but his story of "oh I'm just trying to take a walk on the way home from shul" is a load of crock.

1) for some reason he happens to have a videographer following him on shabbos
2) Aldwych is nowhere near any of the orthodox neighborhoods (like hours away by foot)
3) so doubtful he happens to be walking home from shul holding his Magen David adorned Tallis bag in an area without an eruv (I checked the maps)
4) he doesn't wear a yarmulka regularly (or at all?) but decides that the best time to wear it would be when walking through a Palestinian parade

Feels Kahane-esque to me. And not very productive IMO.

[CountValentine]

The marches are not on set paths known beforehand. Not like they had a permit, got the roads blocked, and he came trying to break through.

Actually it looks to me he did want to break through.

[Yehuda57]

I understand this guy was trying to make a point, but his story of "oh I'm just trying to take a walk on the way home from shul" is a load of crock.

1) for some reason he happens to have a videographer following him on shabbos
2) Aldwych is nowhere near any of the orthodox neighborhoods (like hours away by foot)
3) so doubtful he happens to be walking home from shul holding his Magen David adorned Tallis bag in an area without an eruv (I checked the maps)
4) he doesn't wear a yarmulka regularly (or at all?) but decides that the best time to wear it would be when walking through a Palestinian parade

Feels Kahane-esque to me. And not very productive IMO.

Mild mannered British guy is totes Kahane-esque.

Very common in England for people who don't keep Shabbos to go to shul and take a tallis.

Whether or not the particulars of his story are accurate, the state of safety in these marches is being understated, if anything, and there have been arrests of Jews just for their presence being called disturbing the peace.

[Yehuda57]

Actually it looks to me he did want to break through.

Walk across the road through a march that didn't have road closures scheduled, not break through barriers. You ignored the rest, the police chief and politicians have been adamant these marches are safe. But on the scene they don't let Jews go near them because they're dangerous. But instead of arresting the harassers, they arrest the jews.

[CountValentine]

But instead of arresting the harassers, they arrest the jews.

You know I would condemn that.

Walk across the road through a march that didn't have road closures scheduled, not break through barriers.

You still have to use common sense.

[Yehuda57]

Keep in mind, it's not America. There is no freedom of speech. England has enforced very strict laws against public speech deemed hateful, and there are numerous high profile cases. They have thrown all of that out the window for pro Palestinian marches and allowed anything and everything.

BBC reporters aren't allowed to attend political protests. They were allowed to go to these marches but not pro Israel marches.

[Yehuda57]

You still have to use common sense.

He's clearly doing this to make a point, not play chicken and get across the road. And he made his point very well. You see very clearly that he is threatened with arrest for merely standing on a London street wearing a yarmulka while he is threatened by marchers in front of the same police who don't even react.