Author Topic: PC friday question of the day.  (Read 201356 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1220 on: September 10, 2022, 10:09:19 PM »
My point is not about the halachic process nor about which authority may or may not make changes; it's about the cultural shifts (over hundreds of years) that accompany and precede the changes.
So what if they made the wrong interpretation hundreds of years ago? That wasn't possible?
Of course interpretations may be wrong. Judaism does not believe in infallibility of any mortal. But there is a Halachik process (which we consider divinely derived) in place to prove so. You don't "prove" something because you don't like it.
Considering that all interpretations of Jewish law were subject to the thorough examination and careful scrutiny of the literally tens (hundreds?) of thousands of brilliant scholars throughout the centuries, and when said interpretations were found faulty they were discarded, it isn't really realistic (downright impossible) to think one will be able to disprove anything of significance at this point. (This is something anyone who is familiar with the Talmud and it’s commentators is intimately familiar with, not a forced belief.) It’s application to hither-fore not discussed applications though is of constant discussion and debate within the framework of the Halachik process.

What has never been done, contrary to @Welders post, is to adjust the law outside the framework to be reconciled with secular norms and moral beliefs of the day. And by using examples like capital punishment and animal sacrifices, which the Talmud explicitly accepts literally, he is clearly not working within the frame, because the idea that the Talmud’s conclusions is non debatable is part of the process and not subject to change. Ever. No matter how many
Quote
cultural shifts (over hundreds of years)
take place.
May I suggest for both you and @Welder the following recently published book titled: Is The Good Book Bad
https://www.amazon.com/Good-Book-Bad-Traditional-Indictments/dp/1952370795/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1559L58V6YUXQ&keywords=is+the+good+book+bad&qid=1662860793&sprefix=is+the+good+%2Caps%2C299&sr=8-1
 I perused through it a couple months ago and it appeared to do a decent job explaining some of the things in the Bible that seem to bother him/you.

As for the examples he gave:
Quote
There is a law in the Talmud that one may not get a haircut from a non-jewish barber, reason being concern the non-jew would assault or kill them.

But over generations this law slowly evolved and was 'normalized', permitting it if there was a mirror or other people present, until today when no one really thinks about this anymore. because it's not relevant and comes from historic phobias.

While it's true it is no longer relevant, and is a class A example of
Pagans. Whole different story.
as described succinctly by the Meiri (a prominent early Jewish authority), it isn't true that no one thinks about it. It has the same problem we run into with never relying on a non Jew. The law cannot be changed. The real explanation why it isn't adhered to, is because the robust protection under the law of modern governments for all citizens, including Jews (fairly modern history) would have been adequate protection even from the pagans the laws were originally enacted for (crucial point). When and how we apply these concepts are subject to nuances in Halacha way beyond the scope of this post.

Offline lcm

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1221 on: September 11, 2022, 12:32:51 AM »
Another point to add is that there is Written Torah (the bible), and from that the rest of the Torah, the Talmud included, are derived.
They are derived using clearly outlined guidelines of how to expound it, which are considered divine, having been given directly from G-d to Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses).

Offline WAM

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1222 on: September 11, 2022, 01:56:18 PM »
There is a law in the Talmud that one may not get a haircut from a non-jewish barber, reason being concern the non-jew would assault or kill them.
Non-jew != עע"ז
Fantastic chance that I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that this was specifically for a גוי עע"ז.
That's not as common nowadays.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 02:02:53 PM by WAM »

Offline imayid2

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1223 on: September 11, 2022, 04:25:42 PM »
Non-jew != עע"ז
Fantastic chance that I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that this was specifically for a גוי עע"ז.
Nope. Created for him, binding for all FWIU. Let us know if you have a source for your theory.
That's not as common nowadays.
How common was it when the laws were codified?

Offline rbs-g1.5

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1224 on: September 11, 2022, 04:37:34 PM »
Of course interpretations may be wrong. Judaism does not believe in infallibility of any mortal. But there is a Halachik process (which we consider divinely derived) in place to prove so. You don't "prove" something because you don't like it.
Considering that all interpretations of Jewish law were subject to the thorough examination and careful scrutiny of the literally tens (hundreds?) of thousands of brilliant scholars throughout the centuries, and when said interpretations were found faulty they were discarded, it isn't really realistic (downright impossible) to think one will be able to disprove anything of significance at this point. (This is something anyone who is familiar with the Talmud and it’s commentators is intimately familiar with, not a forced belief.) It’s application to hither-fore not discussed applications though is of constant discussion and debate within the framework of the Halachik process.

What has never been done, contrary to @Welders post, is to adjust the law outside the framework to be reconciled with secular norms and moral beliefs of the day. And by using examples like capital punishment and animal sacrifices, which the Talmud explicitly accepts literally, he is clearly not working within the frame, because the idea that the Talmud’s conclusions is non debatable is part of the process and not subject to change. Ever. No matter how manytake place.
May I suggest for both you and @Welder the following recently published book titled: Is The Good Book Bad
https://www.amazon.com/Good-Book-Bad-Traditional-Indictments/dp/1952370795/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1559L58V6YUXQ&keywords=is+the+good+book+bad&qid=1662860793&sprefix=is+the+good+%2Caps%2C299&sr=8-1
 I perused through it a couple months ago and it appeared to do a decent job explaining some of the things in the Bible that seem to bother him/you.

As for the examples he gave:
While it's true it is no longer relevant, and is a class A example ofas described succinctly by the Meiri (a prominent early Jewish authority), it isn't true that no one thinks about it. It has the same problem we run into with never relying on a non Jew. The law cannot be changed. The real explanation why it isn't adhered to, is because the robust protection under the law of modern governments for all citizens, including Jews (fairly modern history) would have been adequate protection even from the pagans the laws were originally enacted for (crucial point). When and how we apply these concepts are subject to nuances in Halacha way beyond the scope of this post.
Wow! Very nicely explained. I hope you use these talents in the real world!
Yasher Koach

Offline WAM

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1225 on: September 12, 2022, 01:14:49 AM »
Nope. Created for him, binding for all FWIU. Let us know if you have a source for your theory.
How common was it when the laws were codified?
מאירי הקדמה לע"ז פ' ב
I happen to be up to that in משנות today. I know we don't pasken from משניות, which is why I wasn't coming out guns blazing. Also, I didn't see it inside, only in a quote by the Kahati.

Offline WAM

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1226 on: September 12, 2022, 01:25:08 AM »
Everything can be changed (and probably will be) given enough time.
Source?

Offline yesitsme

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1227 on: September 12, 2022, 01:29:50 AM »
["-"]

Offline WAM

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1228 on: September 12, 2022, 01:34:39 AM »

What exactly are you giving a source for?

Offline Moshe Green

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1229 on: September 12, 2022, 07:46:43 AM »
What exactly are you giving a source for?
It sounds like the source is the bad education (or traumatizing incident?) that welder went through as a kid. Hes definitely suffering from something.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 08:46:14 AM by Moshe Green »

Offline WAM

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1230 on: September 12, 2022, 08:09:04 AM »
It sounds like the source is the bad education (or traumatizing incident?) that welder went through as a kids. Hes definitely suffering from something.
Perhaps. Maybe the source is feelings - Ben Shapiro has something to say about facts and how they feel about your feelings.
Maybe @Welder has a source, maybe not, i'd love to see @Welder answer directly.

Offline Welder

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1231 on: September 12, 2022, 08:38:18 AM »
Source?

I explained in the OP it was observation, and gave examples. I know that it's not in the letter of the law that changes are allowed — on the contrary..
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 08:47:11 AM by Welder »
"We need more welders and less philosophers" — Marco Rubio

Offline Welder

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1232 on: September 12, 2022, 08:54:13 AM »
It sounds like the source is the bad education (or traumatizing incident?) that welder went through as a kid. Hes definitely suffering from something.

Not being satisfied with education = suffering?
I mean I'm disappointed, sure. But don't be ridiculous
"We need more welders and less philosophers" — Marco Rubio

Offline WAM

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1233 on: September 12, 2022, 09:00:53 AM »
I explained in the OP it was observation, and gave examples. I know that it's not in the letter of the law that changes are allowed — on the contrary..
The examples were vague. You did not bring a source. If I understand you correctly, you don't have a source, it's just your opinion based on some observations you made - and according to Jewish law, you're wrong (your observation, not mine).
We are known as the "people of the book" for a reason. 

Offline imayid2

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1234 on: September 12, 2022, 09:16:42 AM »
And it isn’t even Friday! :)

Offline imayid2

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1235 on: September 12, 2022, 09:18:06 AM »
I explained in the OP it was observation, and gave examples. I know that it's not in the letter of the law that changes are allowed — on the contrary..
You gave no examples that were beyond a legitimate Halachik process.

Offline imayid2

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1236 on: September 12, 2022, 09:20:14 AM »
You gave no examples that were beyond a legitimate Halachik process.
The various groups that attempted to overstep, are long ago burnt toast. Observers of history take heed!

Offline S209

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1237 on: September 12, 2022, 09:22:49 AM »
The various groups that attempted to overstep, are long ago burnt toast. Observers of history take heed!
Eh. There are more Reform and Conservative Jews in the US than Orthodox.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline imayid2

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1238 on: September 12, 2022, 09:23:42 AM »
Eh. There are more Reform and Conservative Jews in the US than Orthodox.
They are burnt toast!

Offline S209

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Re: PC friday question of the day.
« Reply #1239 on: September 12, 2022, 09:32:11 AM »
They are burnt toast!
What does that mean?
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.