CV's Copy - ISRAEL-HAMAS

[Just A Jew]

Correct. That is the point I was making. The massive bombing campaigns were not targeting tunnels.

I'm confused. You're bringing up a different operation to show they weren't bombing tunnels?

https://www.thenmusa.org/articles/tunnel-rats-of-the-vietnam-war/

The Army initially had trouble figuring out how to deal with the tunnels. Bombing was ineffective: even 750-pound bombs landing 50 yards away from a tunnel entrance had no effect on either the tunnel or the entrance.

[Just A Jew]

"defend themselves" is being looked at differently.

As is the definition of the term, "self-determination." (Eg. "We believe that Israel has the right to self-determination.")

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-determination

[EliJelly]

As is the definition of the term, "self-determination." (Eg. "We believe that Israel has the right to self-determination.")

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-determination

That's on their own buck

[CountValentine]

As is the definition of the term, "self-determination." (Eg. "We believe that Israel has the right to self-determination.")

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-determination

Would it be fair to say you believe anything they do in this military campaign they would be defending themselves?

[Just A Jew]

Would it be fair to say you believe anything they do in this military campaign they would be defending themselves?

Not at all. I'm generally not a fan of the Israeli government, and their military is by no means infallible, both strategically and operationally.

[Just A Jew]

The tunnels are the biggest part of this war.

Yes, and the US determined in post-Vietnam wars that climbing into them isn't the way to go. We blow them to hell with bombs so big we call them The Mother Of All Bombs. And we also understand that civilians will die when we engage in urban warfare, especially when there are tunnels involved.

The difference is, we're under a different kind of pressure, domestically. In Vietnam, we wanted to get out ASAP and get our boys home. While some people here cared about the civilians, too, the pressure was for disengagement on our part. With Israel, the risk factors and pressures are very different, and we can afford to be more dovish.

[CountValentine]

Let's talk about the elephant in the room, the hostages. Is it a given that all or just about all the hostages are being held in the tunnels. The same tunnels you want to drop 2k pound bombs on. 

[Just A Jew]

Let's talk about the elephant in the room, the hostages. Is it a given that all or just about all the hostages are being held in the tunnels. The same tunnels you want to drop 2k pound bombs on.

Not a given that they're even still alive.

And I don't want to drop 2k lb bombs on every tunnel. I want Israel to have the option, based in their intelligence, to bomb the tunnels they feel should be demolished.

[CountValentine]

And I don't want to drop 2k lb bombs on every tunnel. I want Israel to have the option, based in their intelligence, to bomb the tunnels they feel should be demolished.

You think their intelligence is so good they know which tunnels the hostages are in?
The longer this war goes on the less chance of the hostages being released. Israel I believe feels the more they bomb the better the chance. I just don't see it.

[Just A Jew]

You think their intelligence is so good they know which tunnels the hostages are in?
The longer this war goes on the less chance of the hostages being released. Israel I believe feels the more they bomb the better the chance. I just don't see it.

I don't know what they know, and i dont know what they should do. Im not a military stategist and have zero intelligence background. I just want them to have the autonomy to do what they think they should do.

[CountValentine]

I don't know what they know, and i dont know what they should do. Im not a military stategist and have zero intelligence background. I just want them to have the autonomy to do what they think they should do.

Only thing I would add is they should prioritize the hostage's release/rescue.

[Just A Jew]

Only thing I would add is they should prioritize the hostage's release/rescue.

Rescue, yes. Release, I have feelings about that. I don't believe in "at all costs" when it comes to hostage negotiations.

[CountValentine]

Rescue, yes. Release, I have feelings about that. I don't believe in "at all costs" when it comes to hostage negotiations.

I am not saying at all costs but if they are dropping bombs on tunnels without knowing if hostages will be killed in those bombings, then they shouldn't.

I think we gave Israel enough advice for now. 

[Yehuda57]

Only thing I would add is they should prioritize the hostage's release/rescue.

I don't know if you're a podcast guy, but I highly recommend Dan Senor's show, Call Me Back. He speaks to Israeli reporters who are much more in the know about discussions in the Israeli war cabinet than their American counterparts. This week he had Netanyahu on himself.

There are many opinions in Israel on the best way to go about the war, obviously, and the most military pressure possible is one favored even by many of the hostage families.

[JMHO]

You think their intelligence is so good they know which tunnels the hostages are in?

For the right price, the US might even share that intelligence!

[CountValentine]

For the right price, the US might even share that intelligence!

One of many false reports that many ran with in the propaganda thread. 

[yelped]

One of many false reports that many ran with in the propaganda thread. 

-1. It rightly raised outrage, but all of those I saw wrote an "if true". Also, you don't know that it's not true, although, I personally believe it makes no sense to withhold, although I am sure there is other info they are withholding.

[avromie7]

You think their intelligence is so good they know which tunnels the hostages are in?
The longer this war goes on the less chance of the hostages being released. Israel I believe feels the more they bomb the better the chance. I just don't see it.

How many hostages were released because of the past 3 months of light fighting? Did Hamas reduce their demands because of it?

[CountValentine]

-1. It rightly raised outrage, but all of those I saw wrote an "if true". Also, you don't know that it's not true, although, I personally believe it makes no sense to withhold, although I am sure there is other info they are withholding.

Default for the propaganda thread is true unless proven false.

[CountValentine]

How many hostages were released because of the past 3 months of light fighting? Did Hamas reduce their demands because of it?

It has been so long when was the last hostage released?