Why is there so much lashon hora on here about restaurants (and other things)

[imayid2]

To make the distinction between types of genai

Just ran into this

[aygart]

Bottom line the pashtus is that all LH has this halacha of you want to start splitting hairs with svaros alecho raya lihovi

[imayid2]

Is he allowed to tell it to you?

I’d say yes, and perhaps there would indeed be no issur Kabbalah as for him it’s benign and inconsequential and thus not LH.

[imayid2]

Bottom line the pashtus is that all LH has this halacha of you want to start splitting hairs with svaros alecho raya lihovi

Nah
Pashtus is that info that is totally harmless to the person reading it isn’t LH at all.

[aygart]

I’d say yes, and perhaps there would indeed be no issur Kabbalah as for him it’s benign and inconsequential and thus not LH.

This is against the BMC I quoted above that makes it depend on apei tlasa while in a different city.

[imayid2]

He writes that about repeating it in the city he is located IIRC

You recalled incorrectly.

[imayid2]

This is against the BMC I quoted above that makes it depend on apei tlasa while in a different city.

No, the BMC is explicit that the issue is that it will be גורם היזק, even though it was said in another city. That is why it depends on אפי תלתא.

[mevinyavin]

A lot to unpack. A few comments for now, maybe more later:

It’s not necessarily negative to not make good food.

It is negative for a restaurant to not make "good food" - whatever that is. It is not objectively negative for stam a person to not make good food, depending on the context, though it often is still LH. That is: not making good food is the same as any other talent assessment, of which a negative report is bad. So when it is nogea to A) a person's opinion of another, regardless of how ridiculous it is, or B) a person's financial situation because he is trying to make money on the basis of that talent - it is LH to say that he lacks that talent. B is obviously nogea when it comes to claiming a restaurant doesn't make good food. A is nogea also (even for someone who will never eat there) because it reflects badly on a person to say he has opened a business in food but has no talent in it. Lechora.

- Rule #3 requires that "One must be motivated by the need to help others avoid the pain that one experienced, and not motivated by a desire for revenge." I can't speak for others, but personally, if I'm 100% honest with myself, when I've felt like leaving a bad review for a business, more often than not it was at least a bit motivated by a desire to get back after feeling like I was ripped off by a bad experience. Even if there would  be a toeles, I'm pretty sure that disqualifies me from saying it, even if it would also help others.

As noted after, Rabbi Berkovits's take is this: bad motivation automatically disqualifies LH Ltoeles only where lo saamod does not apply (but rather, one of the other heterim). Where lo saamod does apply, he implied that there are some cases where MIXED motivation (you don't like the guy AND you don't want others to go through your experience) is enough to matir - though noted that your accuracy is SUSPECT if you don't like the guy. Lastly, in some cases, he said that you have to get over  your personal negative feelings and only speak lesheim shomayim because lo saamod doesn't let you off the hook. I'm afraid it isn't clear to me which psak applies in which situation, and conversations with him and various talmidim have not cleared it up.

Comment apropos to nothing: there is a huge difference between posting a review listing pros and cons versus an entirely negative review. The former has an umdena that the owner wants the publicity.

Some have commented regarding the fact that experiences are not always the same. (For example, one time it was overdone, the other time it was fine.) The Rav has said that it is fine to say this - after all, if it happened once, it can happen again, and one is permitted to let the reader know that this is within the realm of possibility. However, it should be expressed that way ("This time, the food was overcooked. I don't have enough experience to know if this is always the way that they make it.") If there are extenuating circumstances, one MUST say so. ("They were busier than they usually are.") If there may have been extenuating circumstances, one MUST express the possibility. If a mistake happened, you can tell people it happened unless it is unlikely in your opinion that it would reoccur.
However, the above applies to a mixed review, not a negative review. Once there is an umdena that the owner would not want the review written, none of these heterim apply without the rules of toeles being fully accounted for (including an attempt to complain in private, for example).
He didn't say so, but I suspect a mixed review is actually muttar for anyone to read, but a negative review shouldn't be read without the reader expecting toeles. (And can you know which a review is in advance?) This is why I personally do not read them until I know I will need to read them.

And because no one has mentioned it iirc - it is ossur to believe the reviews you read, only to take them into account without believing them. Just saying...

[jye]

And if you know you will fully believe the review due to the credibility of the poster or his status as a senior DDF member I assume you would not have a heter to read the reviews even if it is litoeles?


Conversely, would you be allowed to post a review if your intention is litoeles but you know that a reader will likely fully believe that what you said really happened; that your service was delayed or your portion of fries was smaller than standard- instead of merely being choshesh without fully believing the truth of your words?

[mevinyavin]

And if you know you will fully believe the review due to the credibility of the poster or his status as a senior DDF member I assume you would not have a heter to read the reviews even if it is litoeles?
Correct, though you should be understanding enough to know that someone else's perspective can be different than yours. That is, you shouldn't be that naïve.

Conversely, would you be allowed to post a review if your intention is litoeles but you know that a reader will likely fully believe that what you said really happened; that your service was delayed or your portion of fries was smaller than standard- instead of merely being choshesh without fully believing the truth of your words?
This is complicated but the short answer that I received is yes. See the back of Dovid Jaffe's sefer for Rabbi Berkovit's discussion regarding the balance of toeles on one hand and lifnei iver on the other hand. It does seem to be a machlokes in the poskim, though.

[imayid2]

A lot to unpack. A few comments for now, maybe more later:
It is negative for a restaurant to not make "good food" - whatever that is. It is not objectively negative for stam a person to not make good food, depending on the context, though it often is still LH. That is: not making good food is the same as any other talent assessment, of which a negative report is bad. So when it is nogea to A) a person's opinion of another, regardless of how ridiculous it is, or B) a person's financial situation because he is trying to make money on the basis of that talent - it is LH to say that he lacks that talent. B is obviously nogea when it comes to claiming a restaurant doesn't make good food. A is nogea also (even for someone who will never eat there) because it reflects badly on a person to say he has opened a business in food but has no talent in it. Lechora.

It’s only LH insomuch that it negatively affects him. If it doesn’t, like in our case, where any possible effect would make it mutar because it would then be לתועלת, there should be no problem. Lchora.

[jye]

It’s only LH insomuch that it negatively affects him. If it doesn’t, like in our case, where any possible effect would make it mutar because it would then be לתועלת, there should be no problem. Lchora.

I personally feel some sense of satisfaction when I read about the new uber high end strakhouse that is trying to outdo everyone else in exclusivity (and pricing) yet can’t seem to do a steak right, or has lousy service for a $650 tab. Is that not LH shelo litoeles?

[imayid2]

And if you know you will fully believe the review due to the credibility of the poster or his status as a senior DDF member I assume you would not have a heter to read the reviews even if it is litoeles?


Conversely, would you be allowed to post a review if your intention is litoeles but you know that a reader will likely fully believe that what you said really happened; that your service was delayed or your portion of fries was smaller than standard- instead of merely being choshesh without fully believing the truth of your words?

Is there a problem to cause someone to “actually believe it” versus merely being choshesh, if the outcome isn’t affected?

In regards to eating or not eating in a certain restaurant there doesn’t seem to be any practical difference to the potential customer. Merely being choshesh allows him to go somewhere else.

[imayid2]

I personally feel some sense of satisfaction when I read about the new uber high end strakhouse that is trying to outdo everyone else in exclusivity (and pricing) yet can’t seem to do a steak right, or has lousy service for a $650 tab. Is that not LH shelo litoeles?

IDK. Maybe in that specific scenario.

[mevinyavin]

It’s only LH insomuch that it negatively affects him. If it doesn’t, like in our case, where any possible effect would make it mutar because it would then be לתועלת, there should be no problem. Lchora.

RYB holds that affecting someone's opinion of a person negatively is enough to make it LH. Are you saying that one's opinion is not affected in our case?

Is there a problem to cause someone to “actually believe it” versus merely being choshesh, if the outcome isn’t affected?

In regards to eating or not eating in a certain restaurant there doesn’t seem to be any practical difference to the potential customer. Merely being choshesh allows him to go somewhere else.

It is ossur to believe it, even though you are acting differently because you heard it. I don't see what you are asking. There's no heter to believe it even if you will act the same...

[jye]

What if there are pics of the food or receipts? Am I mechuyav to not believe that the restaurant charges an exorbitant price for a glass of water if the evidence is there and seems incontrovertible?

[imayid2]

RYB holds that affecting someone's opinion of a person negatively is enough to make it LH. Are you saying that one's opinion is not affected in our case?

Yes

It is ossur to believe it, even though you are acting differently because you heard it. I don't see what you are asking. There's no heter to believe it even if you will act the same...

Usually the issur to believe is in the context of what a person can potentially do different because of that iirc. In a case where there is absolutely no difference I wonder if there is an issur Kabbalah.

[imayid2]

What if there are pics of the food or receipts? Am I mechuyav to not believe that the restaurant charges an exorbitant price for a glass of water if the evidence is there and seems incontrovertible?

Maybe similar:
What if someone says something which isn’t necessarily bad, but is nonetheless lashon hara because it’s can potentially damage someone. For example being מגלה סוד. It’s not so clear that there is an issur Kabbalah in the sense that you can’t believe it.

[mevinyavin]

What if there are pics of the food or receipts? Am I mechuyav to not believe that the restaurant charges an exorbitant price for a glass of water if the evidence is there and seems incontrovertible?

Who's using the word 'exorbitant'? The reviewer? I already said you can publicize prices but not comment on them. How do you know that the ambience, service, etc are not worth the price of the water?
(Just playing devil's advocate here to make my point. I'm not saying the water is not expensive, I'm saying that you still can't believe it.)
I've seen horrible pics of good food and great pics of terrible food. Have you?
One of the baalei mussar said that a krume kup was given to us in order to be dan lekaf zechus. Again, limeichash miboi is fine. But don't believe it.

[mevinyavin]

Maybe similar:
What if someone says something which isn’t necessarily bad, but is nonetheless lashon hara because it’s can potentially damage someone. For example being מגלה סוד. It’s not so clear that there is an issur Kabbalah in the sense that you can’t believe it.

I fail to understand. Wonderful information that can damage someone is ossur to say or to hear. You're saying it is l'toeles? If so, why can someone who will use it to cause damage believe it?