Why is there so much lashon hora on here about restaurants (and other things)

[AsherO]

And because no one has mentioned it iirc - it is ossur to believe the reviews you read, only to take them into account without believing them. Just saying...

Source? As if someone can really control that. You’ll tell me something totally plausible and I have no objective reason to believe I’m not getting the whole story, but I won’t believe you because I’m not allowed.

[AsherO]

Does it make no difference where people are talking about an establishment and nobody knows or cares who the owners are?

[imayid2]

yes. Maybe there is a gun off screen? How are you supposed to know the whole picture without being there?

There are cases that one is allowed to believe LH. Such as when there is סימנים ניכרים or he’s hearing from someone who is נאמן עליו כהי תרי. I’d think that when presented with clear evidence that it would fall into that category. (לימודי זכות may still be required. But that’s when presented real negative info about someone. When it’s about the quality of his merchandise it probably doesn’t apply.)

[madhocker]

Source? As if someone can really control that. You’ll tell me something totally plausible and I have no objective reason to believe I’m not getting the whole story, but I won’t believe you because I’m not allowed.

This is clear in CC Klal 6.

[madhocker]

Another point to consider- even if we were to consider this a case of Toeles, the CC clearly writes that one may not say the LH unless he first tries to be מוכיח the person. So in this case, if a eatery served you a subpar meal, we could only entertain spreading that fact after first speaking to the manager and telling him our concerns, and suggesting how he can improve.

Besides for being a תנאי in hilchos LH, it is also the mentschlach way to act to another yid. Why would we besmirch another yid and cause him potential agmas nefesh, if we can help him improve and be successful?

[madhocker]

I am clueless to where your assertion that in such a scenario where one is causing zero damage by reading something which was posted ltoeles should be prohibited. Do you have a source for such a thing?

-1.
I am with @aygart on this.
See CC 3,6. See explanation in BMC that the etzem negative dibbur against another yid is assur, even if it causes zero damage.
Even if the dibbur was said ltoeles for one person, if for the second person it is not, it would be lifnei iver to tell it to him, being machshil him in shmiya.

Just bumped into this being said in the Dirshu CC klal 3 number 14, (although he does not bring a source for it).

[imayid2]

-1.
I am with @aygart on this.
See CC 3,6. See explanation in BMC that the etzem negative dibbur against another yid is assur, even if it causes zero damage.
Even if the dibbur was said ltoeles for one person, if for the second person it is not, it would be lifnei iver to tell it to him, being machshil him in shmiya.

You are conflating real negative dibbur, with info which isn’t necessarily negative about him, but may be damaging. I am arguing that saying that a restaurant is mediocre is the latter.

[imayid2]

Another point to consider- even if we were to consider this a case of Toeles, the CC clearly writes that one may not say the LH unless he first tries to be מוכיח the person. So in this case, if a eatery served you a subpar meal, we could only entertain spreading that fact after first speaking to the manager and telling him our concerns, and suggesting how he can improve.

There is no din תוכחה on someone for not serving 5 star food. So I’m not sure strictly speaking that tnai would apply.

[Gvann]

There is no din תוכחה on someone for not serving 5 star food. So I’m not sure strictly speaking that tnai would apply.

there were definitely stories posted on this thread even of owners that may need toichacha like not serving food etc.. that is definitely something that is not yashar in business. though yes a burger not up to your liking is not the same thing

[madhocker]

There is no din תוכחה on someone for not serving 5 star food. So I’m not sure strictly speaking that tnai would apply.

My post was about writing that you were served a subpar meal. That is very different from 'not 5 star'.
So we agree- if the post is that the food is not outstanding, and will cause no היזק, it should be muttar. But many reviews are rating food as 2/10 וכדומה, or about horrible service, which are not to be equated with 'not 5 star'. You agree that in this case it would be assur without מוכיח תחילה. Do I understand you correctly?

[madhocker]

I am arguing that saying that a restaurant is mediocre is the latter.

Even a restaurant that markets itself as high-end?

[imayid2]

My post was about writing that you were served a subpar meal. That is very different from 'not 5 star'.
So we agree- if the post is that the food is not outstanding, and will cause no היזק, it should be muttar

Just to be clear that we are talking about the same case, I’m talking about that it will cause hezek, because people looking for a “great” experience may now look elsewhere. And for the reader to whom it’s irrelevant, then he isn’t really someone to whom the info would be considered LH.

But many reviews are rating food as 2/10 וכדומה, or about horrible service, which are not to be equated with 'not 5 star'. You agree that in this case it would be assur without מוכיח תחילה. Do I understand you correctly?

If there is a serious chance that you’d achieve the תועלת for the audience by speaking to the owner about it the certainly that be required, in all scenarios. If not, then I’d assume תוכחה is only required if the guy is being oiver an issur (that’s the context).  I’m not quite sure that having lousy food/service cuts it.

[imayid2]

Even a restaurant that markets itself as high-end?

Maybe, IDK

[aygart]

Maybe, IDK

Wait, you thought this was about a fast food joint not being like a high end restaurant?

[imayid2]

Wait, you thought this was about a fast food joint not being like a high end restaurant?

about any restaurant not being particularly good for whatever reason

[aygart]

about any restaurant not being particularly good for whatever reason

And saying it is BAD for the type of food/service is it marketed as?

[imayid2]

And saying it is BAD for the type of food/service is it marketed as?

I specifically chose the example at the top. I don't have a clear answer on when exactly in turns into something reflecting very negatively on the owner.

[mevinyavin]

@mods - I think we can change the title of the thread? Maybe?
Call it, for instance, "Halachic discussion regarding LH on a forum / re: reviews." No need for every post to proliferate a statement like the original title. IMHO.

[Gvann]

I think that in this group of threads (the greater destination guides thread) there should be no discussion of restaurants. That way it can coincide with the conversation that has transpired on here about different people reading trip reports but have no interest in restaurant ratings, and so on etc. that do not need to hear about rating restaurants and reviewing restaurants.

when discussing a trip one should mention where he went that he liked and only has good things to say about it and nothing negative should be posted here. if they did not like it then if they feel like posting where they went without negative comment by all means, and the reader can understand that if there was no positive comment then maybe they did not have the best experience. When asking in the destinations threads about food, details given about restaurants should not be in regards to comments of their ratings, rather simply what they serve and compliments about their good dishes and service as some have done already in the wikis.

there can be another l'toeles thread of restaurant ratings that people should carefully discuss what they liked/didnt like about the restaurants, and that way its understood that everything in there is specifically on the assumption that the readers are there to decipher where they feel they would make a decision to go to. maybe it should be another group of threads labeled kosher food discussions, etc. where it can be separated by regions and types of facilities (restaurants, lounges, stadiums) and people can yashrusly discuss what they feel helpful to the oilam in discerning where to eat.

[Moshe Green]

...

Well if the idea of a bad review is to save others from going there or at least to let them know not to have high expectations, why should it not be in the main threads?
Many will not look around at different threads and will end up going to that place...