Author Topic: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy  (Read 24244 times)

Offline elit

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2015, 12:59:05 PM »


Maybe it is a compartmentalized organization?

That

Can y'all please stop bring up the dark days of the early 1900's!
 Klall yisroel went through a terrible period of haskala which may have led to uncovered hair and mixed swimming (and even the holocaust according to some!)

So no, we are not changing or moving right or left. Torah true hashkofa never changed. There was just a haskala related dip that thankfully we got over. The MO nostalgia for the bad days of haskala is unfortunate, and as downward slopes go, it has lead to conservadoxy..

To some extent your right line the mixed swimming etc. .. but if you look at pics and hear stories of slobodka telze etc.... it's quite direct than now and I would call them the terrible times of haskalah

Offline Redbull3

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2015, 12:59:18 PM »
As I have said in previous places, an eruv is not a proper analogy since it will only work for an area where the entire issue is dirabonon since a karmelis may get confused with a real reshus harabim and therefore set it up that once there is enough of a heker it returns to being mutar.
Dude CM probably has no idea what you are talking about..

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2015, 12:59:25 PM »
As I have said in previous places, an eruv is not a proper analogy since it will only work for an area where the entire issue is dirabonon since a karmelis may get confused with a real reshus harabim and therefore set it up that once there is enough of a heker it returns to being mutar.
You now how long it would take me to figure out what you just said?  >:(
Dude CM probably has no idea what you are talking about..
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2015, 01:10:49 PM »
Loophole is kind of a callous term; it's incidental and not the end goal. The end goal is the pursuit of knowledge itself. We are obsessed with laws and their interpretation. I'm not sure how much you aware but those of us who "sit and learn" are literally shlugging their thumbs discussing this stuff all day and it's considered basically the holiest endeavor possible. So it's not about proactively searching for loopholes but rather constantly refining our understanding of what the laws are and yes, sometimes we use it to our advantage to make our lives a little easier, but that isn't the end goal, it's the thinking and discussions themselves.
I hear what you are saying and applaud you. How can the string and boom example you gave not be looked as a loophole even if that was not your intention.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2015, 01:29:02 PM »
I hear what you are saying and applaud you. How can the string and boom example you gave not be looked as a loophole even if that was not your intention.
Now you have to figure out aygart's response ;D (eruv is that 'structure/string' that permits the carrying).

Offline good sam

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #85 on: November 03, 2015, 01:35:28 PM »
I hear what you are saying and applaud you. How can the string and boom example you gave not be looked as a loophole even if that was not your intention.
Simple answer is the same Rabbis who said you can't carry said you can put up a string. Not what I would call a loophole.

If the prohibition was a Torah prohibition, we'd be out of luck.
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #86 on: November 03, 2015, 01:37:50 PM »
Simple answer is the same Rabbis who said you can't carry said you can put up a string.
I understand why it would be simple for you if only you could understand why it would not be so simple for others.
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Offline Redbull3

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #87 on: November 03, 2015, 01:41:34 PM »
I understand why it would be simple for you if only you could understand why it would not be so simple for others.

I think some of us are so used to keeping up with the lingo that we take it for granted- you're way too sharp for a goy :P

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #88 on: November 03, 2015, 01:41:43 PM »
I understand why it would be simple for you if only you could understand why it would not be so simple for others.
He's saying this is short version/explanation, not that it's simple and you should understand it easily.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #89 on: November 03, 2015, 01:44:31 PM »
He's saying this is short version/explanation, not that it's simple and you should understand it easily.
The Rabbis said it is OK so what more is there to understand. Seems simple to me or am I missing something?
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #90 on: November 03, 2015, 01:45:59 PM »
The Rabbis said it is OK so what more is there to understand. Seems simple to me or am I missing something?
I was just responding to this:
I understand why it would be simple for you if only you could understand why it would not be so simple for others.

Offline yos9694

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #91 on: November 03, 2015, 01:49:47 PM »
The irony of this thread is that all the responses to CM have about the same purpose as the letter on OO quoted in the OP. Namely, the supposed target of the arguments can never and will never appreciate or understand their gist. The purpose though, is to have the answers yourselves.

On that note, I will throw a few more words into the mix. It is impossible to deny that behaviors and customs practiced by Orthodox Jews have changed over the centuries. Some changes are innocuous, such as declaring a focus for avodas hashem to be through emotional religion (chassidus) vs. through exclusively talmud study (litvaks). Such changes may be very easy to see and topic for endless rivalry, but at the core nothing is changed before and after (or from sect to sect). Other changes have been fundamental, such as Hellenization and Reform, which in hindsight (if not at first sight!) were clearly movements to undermine basic tenets of the Jewish religion. The above letter serves to categorize OO in the latter group.

Offline damaxer91

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2015, 01:50:04 PM »
yawn...

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #93 on: November 03, 2015, 01:50:30 PM »
There are different types of loopholes. There is nothing wrong with opening a refrigerator on Shabbos. There is a problem caused by there being a light in the fridge which will turn on. If you disconnect the light that is not a loophole. The "chilul shabbos switch" is very different. Turn on a light is forbidden on shabbos. someone using such a device is arranging a technicality to do something forbidden.

That covers the light issue, but what about causing the refrigerator/compressor to turn on, which should be assur as well?  Enjoy explaining that one.  :P

No different than opening your house door in winter knowing it will cause your heat to kick in, which is definitely a deoraisa.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #94 on: November 03, 2015, 01:51:21 PM »
I was just responding to this:
By others I meant those who believe no matter what your spiritual adviser says you are ultimately responsible for your actions.
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Offline Redbull3

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #95 on: November 03, 2015, 01:57:39 PM »
That covers the light issue, but what about causing the refrigerator/compressor to turn on, which should be assur as well?  Enjoy explaining that one.  :P

No different than opening your house door in winter knowing it will cause your heat to kick in, which is definitely a deoraisa.

CMIIW but neither of those things are true.. that it's 100% guaranteed (or even 51% likely) that those actions will lead to those stated results. Unlike the light.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #96 on: November 03, 2015, 01:59:33 PM »
CMIIW but neither of those things are true.. that it's 100% guaranteed (or even 51% likely) that those actions will lead to those stated results. Unlike the light.
Would it make a difference if it was 1% true. I have opened a refrigerator and heard the compressor kick on.
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Offline skyguy918

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #97 on: November 03, 2015, 01:59:41 PM »
By others I meant those who believe no matter what your spiritual adviser says you are ultimately responsible for your actions.
Are you referring to yourself? Are you suggesting that people who use an eruv to carry on shabbos will be 'responsible for their actions', meaning that they're doing something wrong?

Offline Aaaron

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #98 on: November 03, 2015, 02:02:11 PM »
Another fun loophole:  Schechita (ritual slaughtering, one of the integral mitzvos of every day observance).  Do you know how many chickens we've all eaten that were schechted with a posul knife?  But it's still kosher!  As long as the first 3 chickens were done properly. 

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Moetzes issue proclamation condemning open orthodoxy
« Reply #99 on: November 03, 2015, 02:03:14 PM »
Are you referring to yourself? Are you suggesting that people who use an eruv to carry on shabbos will be 'responsible for their actions', meaning that they're doing something wrong?
Myself and millions of others. The difference is pretty simple that I think we all can agree on. Some look at a spiritual advisor as someone who tells them what is allowed and not allowed. While others look at this person for guidance.
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