Dubai Master Thread

[1avigrun]

combination. It's considered lechatchila. Machlokes if the food is assur bedieved/ knas

and that’s even if you turn on the fire!?

[moko]

and that’s even if you turn on the fire!?

2 different concepts.
1. Bishul yisrael/ akum. Turning/ putting the food on the fire prevents the food (and keilim ) from becoming assur dur to the gezeirah of bishul akum

2. M'deoraisah, a non kosher kli that is clean and hasn't been used hot (and possibly charif- stirah in shach whether charif is l'shvach in the kli) food cooked in the kli is muttar since any ta'am absorbed from the kli is considered pagum.
The chachamim prohibited using an amino Ben yomo kli out concern you would use a Ben yomo kli.
If you unknowingly  cooked meat in an aino Ben yomo dairy kli, the food would be muttar.

If a non jew cooked non charif ,verifiably kosher food in his clean, non kosher, but aino Ben yomo kli, the food is muttar

The shulchan aruch stated that asking a non jew to cook in his aino Ben yomo pot is similar to you purposely cooking in a non kosher aino Ben yomo pot which is assur.
.

[1avigrun]

2 different concepts.
1. Bishul yisrael/ akum. Turning/ putting the food on the fire prevents the food (and keilim ) from becoming assur dur to the gezeirah of bishul akum

2. M'deoraisah, a non kosher kli that is clean and hasn't been used hot (and possibly charif- stirah in shach whether charif is l'shvach in the kli) food cooked in the kli is muttar since any ta'am absorbed from the kli is considered pagum.
The chachamim prohibited using an amino Ben yomo kli out concern you would use a Ben yomo kli.
If you unknowingly  cooked meat in an aino Ben yomo dairy kli, the food would be muttar.

If a non jew cooked non charif ,verifiably kosher food in his clean, non kosher, but aino Ben yomo kli, the food is muttar

The shulchan aruch stated that asking a non jew to cook in his aino Ben yomo pot is similar to you purposely cooking in a non kosher aino Ben yomo pot which is assur.
.

here that is a safek if it’s not kosher does that make it mutar your just saying in a case where it’s not kosher for sure just not a Ben yomo what about if it’s a safek kosher/not kosher?

[moko]

here that is a safek if it’s not kosher does that make it mutar your just saying in a case where it’s not kosher for sure just not a Ben yomo what about if it’s a safek kosher/not kosher?

what's the safek?

[1avigrun]

what's the safek?

if it was used for non kosher

[moko]

if it was used for non kosher

it was used, belongs to a non jew . It's presumed to be non kosher.
Would you eat your non Jewish friends house if he tells you it's only used for kosher food?
Not sure how a non jew telling you it's only used for kosher creates a safek.

[yungermanchik]

it was used, belongs to a non jew . It's presumed to be non kosher.
Would you eat your non Jewish friends house if he tells you it's only used for kosher food?
Not sure how a non jew telling you it's only used for kosher creates a safek.

The Pischei Teshuva in 69-17 quotes a Nodeh B'yehua in Even Ha'ezer end of 31 that for a D'rabanan an Akum is Ne'eman with a Raglayim L'Davar (see there what constitutes Rl"D) HOWEVER, if you look at that Nb"Y you will see that he is not willing to rely on this svara l'maaseh.

[moko]

The Pischei Teshuva in 69-17 quotes a Nodeh B'yehua in Even Ha'ezer end of 31 that for a D'rabanan an Akum is Ne'eman with a Raglayim L'Davar (see there what constitutes Rl"D) HOWEVER, if you look at that Nb"Y you will see that he is not willing to rely on this svara l'maaseh.

whats the raglayim here? He has only a reason to lie mad no reason to tell the truth since he knows you have absolutely no way to know if he's lying or not.

I personally know several hotels that claim to offer kosher dishes and kitchen equipment. I know firsthand that their lying mad don't care. In their words "it's kosher enough" as the f&b manager said it's kosher enough for those who are going to trust us.

[aygart]

The Pischei Teshuva in 69-17 quotes a Nodeh B'yehua in Even Ha'ezer end of 31 that for a D'rabanan an Akum is Ne'eman with a Raglayim L'Davar (see there what constitutes Rl"D) HOWEVER, if you look at that Nb"Y you will see that he is not willing to rely on this svara l'maaseh.

But what makes this dirabbonon?

[aygart]

I can't believe this conversation is happening.

[moko]

But what makes this dirabbonon?

presumyhe means stam keilim

[yungermanchik]

whats the raglayim here? He has only a reason to lie mad no reason to tell the truth since he knows you have absolutely no way to know if he's lying or not.

As I said see there for what it includes, goes way further than you'd think.

But what makes this dirabbonon?

This is following up on the assumption that stam keilim aino bnei yomom applies in this case.

I can't believe this conversation is happening.

For me, this is l'pulpula b'alma and as the Nb"Y ends off Chas V'shalom Lismoch afilu l'sniff

[moko]

I would add from experience, that when we certify events, we have a very difficult time getting aino Ben yomo keilim

[moko]

As I said see there for what it includes, goes way further than you'd think.

אם הוא יודע מנהגן של ישראל מקרי רגלים לדבר לעשות כמנהג כיון שהוא משמש בבית ישראלhow in the world would that even be remotely similar to this case

[aygart]

presumyhe means stam keilim

This is following up on the assumption that stam keilim aino bnei yomom applies in this case.

That would still be dirabbonon mimakom acher.

[tavster]

[yungermanchik]

That would still be dirabbonon mimakom acher.

As is the case of Dam Shemalcho which they are talking about.

אם הוא יודע מנהגן של ישראל מקרי רגלים לדבר לעשות כמנהג כיון שהוא משמש בבית ישראלhow in the world would that even be remotely similar to this case

My understanding was that the  כיון שהוא משמש בבית ישראל was a reason why there would be a reason to believe that he would want to accommodate מנהגן של ישראל. I thought there was a svara to say that the fact that they went ahead and bought extra stuff for their Kosher consumers would show the same thing. But based on your edit above:

I personally know several hotels that claim to offer kosher dishes and kitchen equipment. I know firsthand that their lying mad don't care. In their words "it's kosher enough" as the f&b manager said it's kosher enough for those who are going to trust us.

That it's not so.

[aygart]

As is the case of Dam Shemalcho which they are talking about.

I don't think that is called makom acher since the entire shaylo is if he cooked blood or not, but I need to review the topic of dirabbonon mimakom acher.

[PlatinumGuy]

In my experience when hotels say they have separate dishes for Kosher, you can clearly see they are stored separately in boxes etc and it's obvious they aren't being used regularly along with the rest of hotels dishes. That should amount to רגלים לדבר. The employees also have little incentive not to just use new ones - at higher end hotels they are always in stock.

On top of that you have סתם כלים אינם בני יומו, the Rama who says בשעת הדחק one can rely on a Goy who says his dishes are new (used only for Kosher is new in that context), and poskim who hold one can be metzaref lekula the fact that with modern metals and detergents there isn't any flavor residue.

It would seem much more Lechtachila than for example relying on a Daas Yochid to be matir Cholov Akum etc

[moko]

In my experience when hotels say they have separate dishes for Kosher, you can clearly see they are stored separately in boxes etc and it's obvious they aren't being used regularly along with the rest of hotels dishes. That should amount to רגלים לדבר. The employees also have little incentive not to just use new ones - at higher end hotels they are always in stock.

On top of that you have סתם כלים אינם בני יומו, the Rama who says בשעת הדחק one can rely on a Goy who says his dishes are new (used only for Kosher is new in that context), and poskim who hold one can be metzaref lekula the fact that with modern metals and detergents there isn't any flavor residue.

It would seem much more Lechtachila than for example relying on a Daas Yochid to be matir Cholov Akum etc

you can do what you want but your facts are so far off I dont even know where to begin. Normally I wouldn't bother responding but I feel in this cas your being machsh the rabim with "fake news" so hopefully I'll have some time debunk your "facts" with actual data from people who have spent countless hours in hotel kitchens