Jewish Children's Albums

[PlatinumGuy]

The only source that I remember seeing (לא ראיתי אינו ראיה, though) is the M"A that @PlatinumGuy brought down, which would mean that technically, solemn, moving music would be muttar, but I would understand how that developed into all music so people shouldn't be moireh heter.

I think Acapella should be banned because it's atrocious, but don't see a source for vocals. I personally listen to Modzitz without music (the hundreds of niggunim recorded over the years privately or at various functions) during Sefira.

The Magan Avrahm is talking about dancing. Not music of any kind.

Listening to recorded music has been assumed by all major poskim to be a logical extension of the enjoyment of listening to musical instruments  because it’s basically the same experience. Though there are differently nuanced approaches. I call it Minhag because I believe many concede it isn’t really the same, so it’s not מעיקר הדין.

So listening to real music is  מעיקר הדין, and recorded music is a new Minhag to consider it the same as real music? Trying to understand your position.

If it's 'not really the same thing' it's not bichlal the original minhag.

[imayid2]

Q: A cappella albums - singing without instrumental accompaniment - are becoming more and more common, especialy during The Three Weeks and Sefirah when we are noheig not to listen to music. Is it halachically permissioie to listen to a cappella music during these times of the year?

Harav Yisroel Belsky shlit"a: Lately, it has become a trend to take every possible pleasure that one can think of and figure out ways to make them permissible at all times. Whether it is the imitation of non-kosher foods, making all chometzdike delicacies kosher l'Pesach, or other similar things, we find this attitude now more than ever. People cannot live for one minute with compromising on pleasures that they are used to or wish to experience. Often, the heteirim to permit such activities are, at best, based on very weak reasoning.

One such example is the desire to listen to music during Sefirah and The Three Weeks. It has become a trend to produce "Sefirah tapes," referred to musically as "a cappella". The wide acceptance of such tapes has not been with rabbinic approval. Indeed, many of the gedolei rabbonim have ruled that one should not listen to this type of music during Sefirah and The Three Weeks. Unfortunately, because the music albums are being sold in the stores, people think that they must be glatt kosher. If they aren't acceptable, people say, why would a Jewish store sell them?

There are basically three types of a cappella.

One is where the musical sounds originate from human voices but the natural properties are digitally modified with computer software to attain quality of sounds that are not humanly possible, thus making it sound more like regular music. Such a cappella is halachically not viewed as being any different from regular music.

There are other forms of a cappella which sound very similar to regular music, although no digital modification is done to the voices. These types of a cappella should also not be listened to during Sefirah and The Three Weeks, as will be explained shortly.

The third type of a cappella is where regular songs are sung by an individual or choir. There is nothing halachically objectionable about listening to such a cappella during Sefirah and The Three Weeks.....

Unmodified A Cappella

There is a common misconception that music is ossur during Sefirah. Nowhere in Hilchos Sefirah or the halachos of The Three Weeks does it mention that there is a minhag not to listen to music. All that is mentioned by the earlier poskim is that there is a minhag to abstain from rikkudim umecholos, dancing.

If so, where does the entire issue of not listening to live or recorded music during Sefirah and The Three Weeks come from?

It appears that although there was no specific minhag not to listen to music, there was a minhag to abstain from things that bring about an excessive amount of enjoyment. Furthermore, technically, due to the churban Beis Hamikdosh, music should be forbidden all year round. However, there are certain kulos which we rely upon. It is during Sefirah and The Three Weeks that we have accepted upon ourselves not to rely on these killos and practice aveilus in this regard. Music has this power more than most things that people do for enjoyment. Music can take someone out of this world, so to speak, and make him forget, at least temporarily. all his worries and problems. Thus, whether the music is live or recorded, it produces this effect, which is contrary to the minhag. A cappella that sounds very similar to music is also included in this minhag and should not be listened to.

Some rabbonim feel that once it sounds like music and is being played from an electron renders it a musical device which is forbidden.

Some others take it a step further and maintain that any music that stimulates the desire to vocals - are forbidden. Be that as it may, if the sound of the a cappella is identical to 'regular music' it should definitely be avoided.

[imayid2]

The Magan Avrahm is talking about dancing. Not music of any kind.

Numerous achronim talk about כלי שיר. Including the מג״א in תקנח.

So this part of it is inaccurate

There is a common misconception that music is ossur during Sefirah. Nowhere in Hilchos Sefirah or the halachos of The Three Weeks does it mention that there is a minhag not to listen to music. All that is mentioned by the earlier poskim is that there is a minhag to abstain from rikkudim umecholos, dancing.

[PlatinumGuy]

Numerous achronim talk about כלי שיר. Including the מג״א in תקנח.

So this part of it is inaccurate

True. I missed that one. Although there he is talking about the 9 days and not the 3 weeks, it might be the same.

[imayid2]

True. I missed that one. Although there he is talking about the 9 days and not the 3 weeks, it might be the same.

The whole 3 weeks isn’t really מעיקר הדין. Assumption is it’s included in מחולות וריקודים.
Other אחרונים include
פרי מגדים תקנא י brought in ביה״ל סעיף ב and mefurash that it applies to 3 weeks as well.
There are a lot more but I think for now it’s been properly established.
Don’t you?

[Yehuda57]

Mods, please rename this thread "Boruch Learns About Hilchos Sefirah Music"

[YitzyS]

Mods, please rename this thread "Boruch Learns About Hilchos Sefirah Music"

Mods, could you just break it off into a separate thread so I can continue to enjoy my thread peacefully?

And could you do it now before I start mercilessly pinging you all over and over?

[PlatinumGuy]

Assumption is it’s included in מחולות וריקודים.

Very interesting. I understood that the term ריקודים ומחולות doesn't technically include music. ריקוד is for sure dance, and I thought מחול is a type of a circle, as it is used today in modern Hebrew and would appear in these sources:

תענית ל״א א:ט׳
אָמַר עוּלָּא בִּירָאָה, אָמַר רַבִּי אֶלְעָזָר: עָתִיד הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא לַעֲשׂוֹת מָחוֹל לְצַדִּיקִים, וְהוּא יוֹשֵׁב בֵּינֵיהֶם בְּגַן עֵדֶן, וְכׇל אֶחָד וְאֶחָד מַרְאֶה בְּאֶצְבָּעוֹ,

Rashi
מחול – סביב לשון מחול הכרם (כלאים פרק רביעי משנה א'): (and many other mishnayos in Zeraim).

(The Aruch Hasholchan quoted above also says it's a כל שכן from ריקודים ומחולות, not included)

On the other hand, it says

הַֽ֭לְלוּהוּ בְּתֵ֣קַע שׁוֹפָ֑ר הַֽ֝לְל֗וּהוּ בְּנֵ֣בֶל וְכִנּֽוֹר׃
דהַֽ֭לְלוּהוּ בְתֹ֣ף וּמָח֑וֹל הַֽ֝לְל֗וּהוּ בְּמִנִּ֥ים וְעוּגָֽב׃
ההַֽלְל֥וּהוּ בְצִלְצְלֵי־שָׁ֑מַע הַֽ֝לְל֗וּהוּ בְּֽצִלְצְלֵ֥י תְרוּעָֽה׃

Which sounds like it's an instrument like all the others.

On the Pasuk in Shemos וַֽיְהִ֗י כַּאֲשֶׁ֤ר קָרַב֙ אֶל־הַֽמַּחֲנֶ֔ה וַיַּ֥רְא אֶת־הָעֵ֖גֶל וּמְחֹלֹ֑ת וַיִּֽחַר־אַ֣ף מֹשֶׁ֗ה וַיַּשְׁלֵ֤ךְ מידו [מִיָּדָיו֙] אֶת־הַלֻּחֹ֔ת וַיְשַׁבֵּ֥ר אֹתָ֖ם תַּ֥חַת הָהָֽר׃  the Malbim I beleive explains it as dancing 'והם שמתו עליו במחולות' but the רבינו בחיי has an interesting and lengthy piece, explicitly saying it's an insturment. It's too much to copy over and סודות נשגבים but you can see here

On the Pasuk in Shmuel יוַיְהִ֣י בְּבוֹאָ֗ם בְּשׁ֤וּב דָּוִד֙ מֵהַכּ֣וֹת אֶת־הַפְּלִשְׁתִּ֔י וַתֵּצֶ֨אנָה הַנָּשִׁ֜ים מִכׇּל־עָרֵ֤י יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ (לשור) [לָשִׁ֣יר] וְהַמְּחֹל֔וֹת לִקְרַ֖את שָׁא֣וּל הַמֶּ֑לֶךְ בְּתֻפִּ֥ים בְּשִׂמְחָ֖ה וּבְשָׁלִשִֽׁים׃

The Metzudas Tzion says it's an instrument

But then by שיר השירים  Pasuk שׁ֤וּבִי שׁ֙וּבִי֙ הַשּׁ֣וּלַמִּ֔ית שׁ֥וּבִי שׁ֖וּבִי וְנֶחֱזֶה־בָּ֑ךְ מַֽה־תֶּחֱזוּ֙ בַּשּׁ֣וּלַמִּ֔ית כִּמְחֹלַ֖ת הַֽמַּחֲנָֽיִם׃ The Metzudas Tzion says

כמחולת. ענין רקוד של שמחה כמו לחול במחולות (שופטים כא כא):

(לחול במחולות  is שופטים כ״א

וּרְאִיתֶ֗ם וְ֠הִנֵּ֠ה אִם־יֵ֨צְא֥וּ בְנוֹת־שִׁילוֹ֮ לָח֣וּל בַּמְּחֹלוֹת֒ וִֽיצָאתֶם֙ מִן־הַכְּרָמִ֔ים וַחֲטַפְתֶּ֥ם לָכֶ֛ם אִ֥ישׁ אִשְׁתּ֖וֹ מִבְּנ֣וֹת שִׁיל֑וֹ

לֹא הָיוּ יָמִים טוֹבִים לְיִשְׂרָאֵל כַּחֲמִשָּׁה עָשָׂר בְּאָב וּכְיוֹם הַכִּפּוּרִים, שֶׁבָּהֶן בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלַיִם יוֹצְאוֹת בִּכְלֵי לָבָן שְׁאוּלִין — שֶׁלֹּא לְבַיֵּישׁ אֶת מִי שֶׁאֵין לוֹ. וּבְנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלַיִם יוֹצְאוֹת וְחוֹלוֹת בַּכְּרָמִים. וּמָה הָיוּ אוֹמְרוֹת: בָּחוּר, שָׂא נָא עֵינֶיךָ וּרְאֵה מָה אַתָּה בּוֹרֵר לָךְ. אַל תִּתֵּן עֵינֶיךָ בַּנּוֹי, תֵּן עֵינֶיךָ בַּמִּשְׁפָּחָה. ״שֶׁקֶר הַחֵן וְהֶבֶל הַיֹּפִי אִשָּׁה יִרְאַת ה׳ הִיא תִתְהַלָּל״, וְאוֹמֵר: ״תְּנוּ לָהּ מִפְּרִי יָדֶיהָ וִיהַלְלוּהָ בַשְּׁעָרִים מַעֲשֶׂיהָ״. ווְכֵן הוּא אוֹמֵר: ״צְאֶינָה וּרְאֶינָה בְּנוֹת צִיּוֹן בַּמֶּלֶךְ שְׁלֹמֹה בָּעֲטָרָה שֶׁעִטְּרָה לּוֹ אִמּוֹ בְּיוֹם חֲתֻנָּתוֹ וּבְיוֹם שִׂמְחַת לִבּוֹ״. ״בְּיוֹם חֲתֻנָּתוֹ״ — זֶה מַתַּן תּוֹרָה, ״וּבְיוֹם שִׂמְחַת לִבּוֹ״ — זֶה בִּנְיַן בֵּית הַמִּקְדָּשׁ, שֶׁיִּבָּנֶה בִּמְהֵרָה בְּיָמֵינוּ.)

And then מצודת ציון על שופטים כ״א:כ״א:א׳
לחול במחולות. ענין רקידת השמחה, וקרוי בלשון מחול, כי הדרך לזמר אז בחלילים, או רצה לומר, בכלי מחול, וכן (שמות לב יט) וירא את העגל ומחלת:

In  ויקרא, רבינו בחיי himself seems to interpret it differently than an instrument, but I'm not sure exactly what he means

פרי מגדים תקנא י brought in ביה״ל סעיף ב and mefurash that it applies to 3 weeks as well.

He could be talking about a a place where there was dancing. (If you hold it's possible for Goyim to have Simcha  )

But one way or another you see the level of significance of this minhag that he was matir for Parnassa, so it seems like a strange place to look for Chumrash. We say in Viduy את אשר התרתי אסרת ואשר אסרתי התרת...

[YitzyS]

I would like to invite everyone to check out the wiki of this thread and to imagine how much effort and time went into creating it. And imagine if you did that, and then everyone came trampling through your effort dragging lashon harah and bizayon talmidei chacomim and all sorts of unrelated conversations. Would you not be frustrated?

And that, your honor, is why I spammed them all with DMs and pinged them needlessly through the night.

[YitzyS]

*talking in a natural voice, trying to make as if nothing happened*

Can I direct everyone to please continue this conversation on the Sefira Music thread? https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=27758.0

Thank you so much for visiting, and I hope you come again soon.

[aygart]

Amazing how much people enjoy assering things. How many people here are as Makpid to sleep in a Sukka which is mefurash Pasuk and Mitzvas Esseh Medorisa? It's almost like Yetzer Hora gets people to focus on minahgim to neglect other things.. 

The Shulchan Aruch who assers music year round and some say we're makpid on during 3 weeks says explicitily vocal music is only assur with wine

  תקס, ג

וכן גזרו שלא לנגן בכלי שיר וכל מיני זמר וכל משמיעי קול של שיר לשמח בהם: הגה ויש אומרים דוקא מי שרגיל בהם כגון המלכים שעומדים ושוכבים בכלי שיר או בבית המשתה [טור] ואסור לשומעם מפני החורבן ואפי' שיר בפה על היין אסורה שנא' בשיר לא ישתו יין

You are correct that I mispoke about them not being mentioned, but rather that there is nowhere that differentiates between them. The source is all from rikudim umcholos with no difference made between oral or instrumental.

Why did you stop the first bold where you did? Are you trying to be medayek from the afilu?

The rest are simply adding that it is kol shekain that it can't be with instruments. That doesn't limit to only the kol shekain.

[imayid2]

*talking in a natural voice, trying to make as if nothing happened*

Can I direct everyone to please continue this conversation on the Sefira Music thread? https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=27758.0

Thank you so much for visiting, and I hope you come again soon.

In deference to @YitzyS, and out of pure compassion for the people he's been spamming, I’ll be posting my reply in the above thread.
Thank you your honor for your gracious hospitality, sorry we overstayed our welcome.

[aygart]

I would like to invite everyone to check out the wiki of this thread and to imagine how much effort and time went into creating it. And imagine if you did that, and then everyone came trampling through your effort dragging lashon harah and bizayon talmidei chacomim and all sorts of unrelated conversations. Would you not be frustrated?

And that, your honor, is why I spammed them all with DMs and pinged them needlessly through the night.

you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion

[YitzyS]

In deference to @YitzyS, and out of pure compassion for the people he's been spamming, I’ll be posting my reply in the above thread.
Thank you your honor for your gracious hospitality, sorry we overstayed our welcome.

username checks out

[PlatinumGuy]

You are correct that I mispoke about them not being mentioned, but rather that there is nowhere that differentiates between them.

Do you dispute that the Shulchan Aruch does explicitly distinguish by his Issur of כל השנה?

If so, it's established they're different, so when the Achronim talk about instruments, the burden of proof is on whoever says accepella is the same.

[YitzyS]

Do you dispute that the Shulchan Aruch does explicitly distinguish by his Issur of כל השנה?

If so, it's established they're different, so when the Achronim talk about instruments, the burden of proof is on whoever says accepella is the same.

How can the Count open the dungeon if Borozov has the golden crown?

[dm123]

*talking in a natural voice, trying to make as if nothing happened*

Can I direct everyone to please continue this conversation on the Sefira Music thread? https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=27758.0

Thank you so much for visiting, and I hope you come again soon.

Just to get the ball rolling on this...

Any other recommendations for Yiddish kids music aside from the cornucopia offered by R Berel Sofer, for example seen in exhibit A:

Lchaim Kindergarten

I would like to invite everyone to check out the wiki of this thread and to imagine how much effort and time went into creating it. And imagine if you did that, and then everyone came trampling through your effort dragging lashon harah and bizayon talmidei chacomim and all sorts of unrelated conversations. Would you not be frustrated?

And that, your honor, is why I spammed them all with DMs and pinged them needlessly through the night.

The court will note my innocence in the matter raised by the honorable Yitzys, as I did my part to move aforementioned discussion to a more appropriate thread as seen in exhibit B:

Is there a reason to be makpid/meikel on kids music during 3 weeks/sefira?

[aygart]

How can the Count open the dungeon if Borozov has the golden crown?

Which idiot would make an place that the only way in is with a crown?

[PlatinumGuy]

How can the Count open the dungeon if Borozov has the golden crown?

[yfr bachur]

*talking in a natural voice, trying to make as if nothing happened*

Can I direct everyone to please continue this conversation on the Sefira Music thread? https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=27758.0

Thank you so much for visiting, and I hope you come again soon.

@YitzyS  Sorry, didn't think that my naïve question would spark a war 
Maybe our resident Jewish music expert has a recommendation for me?