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@AsherO

I would like a list of potential pitfalls. This is not the Shulchan Aruch here, but to raise awareness, so people will know to look into it, or ask their rabbi.
« Last edited by SuperFlyer on May 16, 2024, 06:55:37 AM »

Author Topic: Non-Obvious Halachic Points that might be Very Relevant (please do not clutter)  (Read 21994 times)

Offline ushdadude

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That is not what you are paying for and the fee would be there even if they would transfer instantly.

what's the fee for?


This is not how I came out and a number of local poskim agreed with me



based on what?

Offline aygart

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Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ushdadude

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This is not agar natar


even if they charge more than their actual cost?

Offline aygart

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even if they charge more than their actual cost?
That is still not what it is for. The money can actually end up in their account faster than if it was by check sometimes
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Offline ushdadude

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That is still not what it is for. The money can actually end up in their account faster than if it was by check sometimes


what's it for?


i've never heard of a cash vs check discount so I don't know how that's relevant.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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what's it for?

Reporting, chargeback risk, and simple rounding/averaging of the fee to make it easier to calculate. The fees are generally not fixed and vary depending on the card type/country etc.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר Ė יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline avromie7

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what's it for?


i've never heard of a cash vs check discount so I don't know how that's relevant.
Call it a check vs card discount
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline ushdadude

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Offline aygart

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I know that he writes this. It is not there in the source quoted in the footnotes.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online Ver hut gazugt

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not saying this means something. for a very long time many stores had sales for cash and carry only. Never heard anyone make an issue about it.

Offline ushdadude

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I know that he writes this. It is not there in the source quoted in the footnotes.
did you read footnote 18?

either way, I would trust R' Reisman's svara, even without a source

Offline aygart

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did you read footnote 18?



Yes do you see something there?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline chessman1

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did you read footnote 18?

either way, I would trust R' Reisman's svara, even without a source

Even if the merchant doesn't receive the money right away, it's not clear how the merchant is extending credit to the purchaser. Once the credit card transaction is approved, what debt does the purchaser have to the merchant? The card issuer has a debt, but it's not clear that the purchaser does.

Offline ushdadude

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Yes do you see something there?

I read Rabbi Reisman's interpretation.

The onus is really on you to disprove the psak of one of the world's experts on ribbis. Not with your own sevara against him.

either way, I would trust R' Reisman's svara, even without a source


Offline aygart

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I read Rabbi Reisman's interpretation.

The onus is really on you to disprove the psak of one of the world's experts on ribbis. Not with your own sevara against him.
I don't understand. Do you somehow see it in the source that he quotes?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ushdadude

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I don't understand. Do you somehow see it in the source that he quotes?
The source explicitly talks about credit vs cash pricing and Rabbi Reisman extends that to credit card payments with a compelling svara.

The onus is really on you to disprove the psak of one of the world's experts on ribbis. Not with your own sevara against him.

Offline aygart

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The source explicitly talks about credit vs cash pricing and Rabbi Reisman extends that to credit card payments with a compelling svara.


Nobody is compelling you to listen to what I wrote.

The day or two that the BANK owes money to the vendor is not really comparable to a case where the buyer got a loan from him. The buyer already fulfilled all of his obligations to the vendor and the remaining transaction is entirely between the vendor and the vendor's processor. That the processor witholds the money from the vendor has nothing to do with the buyer and is likely comparable to hilvani ad sheyavo bni with it being due to processing times going from the issuing bank to Visa to the card processor to the vendor. Even the CC fee charged by the vendor is not because of any loan between them but rather to defray costs of accepting the card and the risks involved. This is visible by the fact that there is no charge for paying by check even though it takes longer for the vendor to receive the money.
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Offline ushdadude

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Nobody is compelling you to listen to what I wrote.

The day or two that the BANK owes money to the vendor is not really comparable to a case where the buyer got a loan from him. The buyer already fulfilled all of his obligations to the vendor and the remaining transaction is entirely between the vendor and the vendor's processor. That the processor witholds the money from the vendor has nothing to do with the buyer and is likely comparable to hilvani ad sheyavo bni with it being due to processing times going from the issuing bank to Visa to the card processor to the vendor. Even the CC fee charged by the vendor is not because of any loan between them but rather to defray costs of accepting the card and the risks involved. This is visible by the fact that there is no charge for paying by check even though it takes longer for the vendor to receive the money.
Is that necessarily true? What if the credit card processor shuts down the vendor's account and reverses all transactions before the funds were deposited? The vendor would then seek payment from the buyer again, indicating that the buyer's obligation isn't fully discharged until the vendor receives the funds. This scenario, though uncommon, highlights that the vendor is extending credit to the buyer.

In terms of covering costs, that only works if they charge what their actual costs are. If they really wanted to charge for risk, they would charge for check payments which is even riskier.

Offline aygart

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Is that necessarily true? What if the credit card processor shuts down the vendor's account and reverses all transactions before the funds were deposited? The vendor would then seek payment from the buyer again, indicating that the buyer's obligation isn't fully discharged until the vendor receives the funds. This scenario, though uncommon, highlights that the vendor is extending credit to the buyer.

In terms of covering costs, that only works if they charge what their actual costs are. If they really wanted to charge for risk, they would charge for check payments which is even riskier.
That the transaction got reversed and the money ended up back by me doesn't me it want completed before.
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Offline ushdadude

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That the transaction got reversed and the money ended up back by me doesn't me it want completed before.

I'm talking about before it was completed (still shows pending on your cc bill)