Eurovision: Eden Golan's October Rain/Hurricane In Malmo

[EliJelly]

If being Jewish has nothing to do with observance, as we both agree, then pride in being Jewish says nothing about religious observance. Again, we're not saying she is someone to be looked up to or even talked about in the frum world. The reality is, the Jewish world is much bigger than the frum one. There is a place for Jewish pride in the world (outside our bubble) that has nothing to do with being shomer Torah u'mitzvos.

For the sake of this debate lets agree that what she is proud of is indeed authentic Jewish pride (which I agree is possible even without being observant) and not just a substituted nationality pride, nevertheless, in the way it was expressed, persevering to attend an utter Torah violating contest, how can one in his right mind call that very appearance "standing as a proud Jew"?

[CountValentine]

I don’t know how well the “younger generation” of DDF knows me, as I’m not nearly as active as I used to be.

Our loss.

You can just feel the passion in your post.

[Just A Jew]

What is the meaning of “Jewish pride” if it is in the context of trying to “outgoyim the goyim”? It is an empty hollow construct that triggers revulsion in anyone to whom the Jewish nation is significant only in its allegiance to and connection with Hashem. There is always the concept of tinok shenishba and if a Jewish actor or CEO is the hook that gets them to take a second look at their religion that’s great, but Jewish pride in the context of a valiant attempt to erase any הבדלה between Klal Yisroel and the goyim is just a sad perversion of the core of what being a Jew means.

I'm going to highlight one thing you wrote: "in anyone to whom the Jewish nation is significant only in its allegiance to and connection with Hashem." That narrows it down to about 5-10% of people the Torah tells us are just as Jewish as me or you.

[Just A Jew]

For the sake of this debate lets agree that what she is proud of is indeed authentic Jewish pride (which I agree is possible even without being observant) and not just a substituted nationality pride, nevertheless, in the way it was expressed, persevering to attend an utter Torah violating contest, how can one in his right mind call that very appearance "standing as a proud Jew"?

I'm not sure how to explain this. Have you ever met a Jew who has never kept a stitch of Torah u'mitzvos in their life, and has no intention of doing so, either, because they don't know what you know? Their pintele yid tells them they were born a Jew and that is important. That's it. Torah isn't part of their equation. You're going to tell me that because you know the importance of a Jew being shomer Torah u'mitzvos, therefore non-observant Jews can't have Jewish pride when it runs contrary to what you know to be true? Pride is a feeling, and you're trying to bring in facts (little known as they may be to 90% of Jews) to say the feelings aren't real. Is that fair?

[jye]

I don't know. Not my place to figure it out.

Here's what I do know.

There's a song they teach kids in Jewish day camps for non-observant Jews. It goes, "I'm a Jew and I'm proud, and I'll sing it out loud, for forever that's what I'll be. I'm a Jew and I'm proud, and it's without a doubt, that Hashem is always watching over me."

I've seen this song taught to tens of thousands of kids from non-frum homes. The vast majority of those kids continue to lead non-frum lifestyles. However, do you know how many kids became frum, or frummer, at some point in their lives because of that song? With assimilation and intermarriage rates through the roof, who am I, or any of us, to diminish someone's Jewishness or pride in being Jewish? How many stories did you hear as a kid of a Rebbe or Gadol taking inspiration from someone who, on its face, wasn't doing things the way Torah says?

I can't reiterate this enough, it seems. No one is saying to bring her into your homes. No one is saying YOU should be proud of her. But don't diminish the good that came out of a Jew standing on a huge international platform and being proud of being Jewish.

Note that the song connects “I’m a Jew and I’m proud” with “Hashem watching over me.” If one is proud to be a Jew taking the Trans movement to where it has never gone before, proud to be the Jew at the cutting edge of the gay rights movement , proud to be the Jewish agnostic petitioning the US court of appeals to forbid the mention of G-d in public venues, is that legitimate Jewish pride? I think everyone gets the point that there is utility in unaffiliated Jews having generic Jewish pride. This is a very different matter.

[EliJelly]

I'm not sure how to explain this. Have you ever met a Jew who has never kept a stitch of Torah u'mitzvos in their life, and has no intention of doing so, either, because they don't know what you know? Their pintele yid tells them they were born a Jew and that is important. That's it. Torah isn't part of their equation. You're going to tell me that because you know the importance of a Jew being shomer Torah u'mitzvos, therefore non-observant Jews can't have Jewish pride when it runs contrary to what you know to be true? Pride is a feeling, and you're trying to bring in facts (little known as they may be to 90% of Jews) to say the feelings aren't real. Is that fair?

As I said, it's possible to be proud being a Jew even while not being observant. However, when such pride is being expressed in the most antithetical way of being Jewish, which you and I luckily do know what that is, then it's sad enough that one considers that being Jewish pride, and even sadder when we call it so.

[Just A Jew]

Note that the song connects “I’m a Jew and I’m proud” with “Hashem watching over me.” If one is proud to be a Jew taking the Trans movement to where it has never gone before, proud to be the Jew at the cutting edge of the gay rights movement , proud to be the Jewish agnostic petitioning the US court of appeals to forbid the mention of G-d in public venues, is that legitimate Jewish pride? I think everyone gets the point that there is utility in unaffiliated Jews having generic Jewish pride. This is a very different matter.

There's a disconnect in your examples. She isn't taking pride in being mechalel shabbos. It's an unfortunate byproduct of the circumstances. If the contest was in the middle of the week, your stance would change, but hers wouldn't. You're taking your offense at the timing of the competition and discounting her pride because of it.

[Just A Jew]

As I said, it's possible to be proud being a Jew even while not being observant. However, when such pride is being expressed in the most antithetical way of being Jewish, which you and I luckily do know what that is, then it's sad enough that one considers that being Jewish pride, and even sadder when we call it so.

If the contest was on a Monday, would you feel the same way? Which specific part of what she did do you feel negates the concept of Jewish pride?

[moko]

Go ahead show a time after Matan Torah when the majority of our nation wasn't observant. It happened after Haskalah, do your homework again. Besides, I have no idea why this too is relevant to our discussion.

Amon and Menasheh?

[EliJelly]

If the contest was on a Monday, would you feel the same way? Which specific part of what she did do you feel negates the concept of Jewish pride?

Why are you stuck just at the chilul shabbos? The whole performance runs at the opposite of Judaism, yet it is somehow coined as something which brings about Jewish pride.

[yelped]

I feel like people are talking over each other here and talking about two different things.

[Just A Jew]

Why are you stuck just at the chilul shabbos? The whole performance runs at the opposite of Judaism, yet it is somehow coined as something which brings about Jewish pride.

You're equating Jewish with Jewish Observance, which is a standard even G-d Himself doesn't hold.

[EliJelly]

Amon and Menasheh?

The nisoyon of AZ by their generations is something we don't understand nowadays at all. This is still not negating the fact that they were observing and abiding by Torah umitzvos. Menashe is a good example with the Gemara where he challenged the Amora with the halachos of בציעת הפת.

[jye]

There's a disconnect in your examples. She isn't taking pride in being mechalel shabbos. It's an unfortunate byproduct of the circumstances. If the contest was in the middle of the week, your stance would change, but hers wouldn't. You're taking your offense at the timing of the competition and discounting her pride because of it.

Eurovision is often described as “the gay Olympics” It is a platform of LGBTQ expression and values. Israel’s participation is symbolic of its claim to a rightful place as a nation among all others, sharing culture, values and goals that are decidedly discordant with everything that being Jewish, and the Jewish nation stands for. It is meant specifically to blur the lines between Jews and the אומות העולם. If the contest took place on a Tuesday it would be just as much of a distortion of the concept of Jewish pride.

[EliJelly]

You're equating Jewish with Jewish Observance, which is a standard even G-d Himself doesn't hold.

All I'm saying is that Jewish pride can't consist of something which is just the opposite of it, no idea why you having such difficulties grasping that. If some are unfortunately calling or thinking it's Jewish pride, we should cry for them, not putting their warped views on a pedestal. 

[Just A Jew]

Eurovision is often described as “the gay Olympics” It is a platform of LGBTQ expression and values. Israel’s participation is symbolic of its claim to a rightful place as a nation among all others, sharing culture, values and goals that are decidedly discordant with everything that being Jewish, and the Jewish nation stands for. It is meant specifically to blur the lines between Jews and the אומות העולם. If the contest took place on a Tuesday it would be just as much of a distortion of the concept of Jewish pride.

We're not going to agree on this. I'm not defining Jewish pride based on my Torah view of what Jewish observance is. Being Jewish isn't defined by what our views on what Jewish observance is. Being in existince as a Jew has nothing to do with that, either. There is a place for that kind of pride, IMO, and that's likely where we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Just A Jew]

All I'm saying is that Jewish pride can't consist of something which is just the opposite of it, no idea why you having such difficulties grasping that. If some are unfortunately calling or thinking it's Jewish pride, we should cry for them, not putting their warped views on a pedestal.

Do you think there is any value in taking pride in being born a Jew, regardless of level of observance? If not, this is where we disagree, and there's nothing we can do about that.

[TimT]

I feel like people are talking over each other here and talking about two different things.

Welcome to DDF. Soon it’ll be split off into 3 threads in 5 different boards.

[CountValentine]

Welcome to DDF. Soon it’ll be split off into 3 threads in 5 different boards.

Without my help. 

[jye]

Do you think there is any value in taking pride in being born a Jew, regardless of level of observance? If not, this is where we disagree, and there's nothing we can do about that.

What does that even mean? Patrilineal descent? Genetic testing? If it means I’m a Jew and I’m different yes. If it simply means I’m proud to have been born a Jew as a Jewish Trans, a Jewish Atheist, a Jewish Cartel leader, a Jewish Cannibal, where is the value?  And if I go even further and make it my goal to strive to show that my being born Jewish is of no consequence because I’ve completely assimilated your culture and values so I’m really just like you and I’m on a mission to prove it, then where is the value in that pride?