Author Topic: #DeathSantis  (Read 10418 times)

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 867
  • Total likes: 959
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2021, 01:31:32 PM »
To only start after NY's wave subsided? Really?
Yes, the huge surge in FL happened after the initial huge surge in NY.  I'll try to get the graph and figure out how to post it later.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 13065
  • Total likes: 7717
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2021, 01:33:46 PM »
Yes, the huge surge in FL happened after the initial huge surge in NY.  I'll try to get the graph and figure out how to post it later.
And compare to NY after they subsided?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 867
  • Total likes: 959
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2021, 01:34:11 PM »
TLDR - If you only look at the metrics by which Florida did worse than NY and judge based on that, then Desantis did a worse job than Coumo...
Too short, didn't understand. 
Are you suggesting that I'm cherry-picking data by choosing just those where FL did worse?  I'm not, I'm cherry-picking them based on which data have the potential to answer the question.

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 6819
  • Total likes: 1385
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2021, 01:36:34 PM »
This isn't the most relevant metric in this case.  Where lawmakers can most influence a pandemic is by slowing/preventing its spread, so it's the number of cases that you'd want to compare. 
This is just not true.  I don't know what you're basing this on, and the article aygart posted is behind a paywall.  Maybe you were focused on Lubavitcher infections, and it's true that Rabbi Lipskar was one of the first in FL to be infected, in March.  But if you look at the total infections, the rate increased and decreased in NY long before the peak had even started in FL. 

The high rate of transmission in NY occurred early on because we knew so little about the virus, how to prevent transmission and how to treat it.  In FL, people were naturally in less indoor crowded conditions, and the virus cases were low and increasing only slowly in March and April.  By May, we knew much more about the virus from NY's experience, and so knew how to prevent the surge seen in NY by imposing a lockdown.  But instead of carefully re-opening, the governor lifted all restrictions in May, not because they were no longer necessary, not because doctors or public health officials or scientists recommended it, but because the college kids who bring in so much income to the tourist industry wanted to celebrate their missed spring break on the beaches of FL.  Wouldn't that be great for our economy!  For our personal freedom!  The surge of infections that followed tells only part of the story, since a large part of those infected returned to their home states, to raise the numbers and spread the infections there, so FL numbers undercount the transmissions that occurred here. 

New York's surge was unpredictable, Florida's surge could have been prevented.

A comparison of different states requires much more nuance than we have here, but at a minimum, if you want to compare how government policies affected the spread in NY and FL, you should start with sometime in the summer 2020, when knowledge of the virus was equal in the two states.
It appears there might be a confusion here between CFR and population mortality rate.
Ultimately, the population mortality rate is what really matters. If FL was able to keep theirs lower, even if they had 100x more cases I consider that the ultimate success.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 2988
  • Total likes: 6914
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2021, 01:38:56 PM »
Or maybe the waves are seasonal. People are indoors in FL in the summer and in NY in the winter.

And death rate is for sure a better metric to use, especially if the goal of FL was to protect the elderly and vulnerable and let the others have higher but less dangerous case counts
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 867
  • Total likes: 959
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2021, 01:51:06 PM »
Ultimately, the population mortality rate is what really matters. If FL was able to keep theirs lower, even if they had 100x more cases I consider that the ultimate success.
Good answer, to a different question.

The question here is whether Gov D took appropriate steps to combat the pandemic in his state. 

Just like you might ask which of two doctors provides better treatment.  Doctor A gives the patient various drugs... and the patient dies.  Doctor B leaves town, vacations in the Maldives, never returns phone messages... and the patient lives.  Would you conclude, Wow!  I really like how Doctor B handled that patient!  I'm going to him for all my problems!  Probably not.  True, life is better than death, but that would not be enough of a reason to prefer Doctor B in this case.

What governors can do is help prevent the virus from spreading, so that parameter is more important for answering this question.

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 6819
  • Total likes: 1385
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2021, 01:57:51 PM »
Good answer, to a different question.

The question here is whether Gov D took appropriate steps to combat the pandemic in his state. 

Just like you might ask which of two doctors provides better treatment.  Doctor A gives the patient various drugs... and the patient dies.  Doctor B leaves town, vacations in the Maldives, never returns phone messages... and the patient lives.  Would you conclude, Wow!  I really like how Doctor B handled that patient!  I'm going to him for all my problems!  Probably not.  True, life is better than death, but that would not be enough of a reason to prefer Doctor B in this case.

What governors can do is help prevent the virus from spreading, so that parameter is more important for answering this question.
But that was never his goal and for good reason What he cares about most is saving lives. There is a very good argument to be made that he was successful in achieving that goal the best way possible. I understand that you and some others have a different goal of limiting spread, but he and many others simply don't care about that and for good reason. Add to this that he was able to do this while allowing everyone the freedom to do what they feel is best for themselves and he should be out hero, not our punching bag.

You make it sound like he was out in vacation which is simply not true. He made very calculated decisions that seemingly paid off.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 2988
  • Total likes: 6914
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2021, 01:59:56 PM »
Again with the gaslighting of the downsides of lockdowns and mitigation methods.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 867
  • Total likes: 959
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2021, 02:05:24 PM »
Or maybe the waves are seasonal. People are indoors in FL in the summer and in NY in the winter.
This question was much discussed last spring, when it was noticed that rates were so much lower in FL than NY, and people were suggesting that it would be seasonal, not appear in hot weather, etc. but that didn't pan out.

DeSantis has actually used this idea as one of his explanations for our current vertical rise in infections.  It's because people are indoors in close quarters with air-conditioning.  His other explanation is because Biden.  No evidence presented for either..
Quote
And death rate is for sure a better metric to use, especially if the goal of FL was to protect the elderly and vulnerable and let the others have higher but less dangerous case counts
I don't want to re-open the whole Sweden vs Denmark thread, aka S209 vs others thread, but suffice it to say that if this was DeSantis' goal, then he was even worse than I thought. 

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 867
  • Total likes: 959
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2021, 02:12:51 PM »
I understand that you and some others have a different goal of limiting spread, but he and many others simply don't care about that and for good reason.
I and some others understand how disease spreads, while he and many others are lawyers and businessmen.

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 2988
  • Total likes: 6914
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2021, 02:13:34 PM »
This question was much discussed last spring, when it was noticed that rates were so much lower in FL than NY, and people were suggesting that it would be seasonal, not appear in hot weather, etc. but that didn't pan out.

DeSantis has actually used this idea as one of his explanations for our current vertical rise in infections.  It's because people are indoors in close quarters with air-conditioning.  His other explanation is because Biden.  No evidence presented for either..I don't want to re-open the whole Sweden vs Denmark thread, aka S209 vs others thread, but suffice it to say that if this was DeSantis' goal, then he was even worse than I thought.

It didn't pan out until FL rates dropped and NY rose again in the winter, now FL is rising, and NY will rise in winter, and they'll blame it on the Jews again.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 6819
  • Total likes: 1385
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2021, 02:16:10 PM »
It didn't pan out until FL rates dropped and NY rose again in the winter, now FL is rising, and NY will rise in winter, and they'll blame it on the Jews again.
We should bookmark this post.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10185
  • Total likes: 3301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2021, 02:50:14 PM »
Ultimately, the population mortality rate is what really matters. If FL was able to keep theirs lower, even if they had 100x more cases I consider that the ultimate success.
100x more that get sick with some long term effects doesn't matter?
Comparing those who died at the beginning and those dying now is complete nonsense. Two totally different situations.
No matter what way you cut it, x will die for y infections. You keep x down by keeping y down. Being the epicenter for y is nothing but a failure!!!
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 6819
  • Total likes: 1385
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2021, 03:49:38 PM »
100x more that get sick with some long term effects doesn't matter?
Comparing those who died at the beginning and those dying now is complete nonsense. Two totally different situations.
No matter what way you cut it, x will die for y infections. You keep x down by keeping y down. Being the epicenter for y is nothing but a failure!!!
That title was passed around the country (and the world) many times in the last year. If it's a D area it's everyone elses fault as well as just the nature of the beast. But if it's in a R area it's because they're a bunch of murderous knuckleheads.

Now that we got that out of the way, you believe the best way to reduce x is by reducing y. This is clearly not the only factor. If you would stop and thank you would realize desantis was more successful than most at keeping x down.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10185
  • Total likes: 3301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2021, 04:01:23 PM »
That title was passed around the country (and the world) many times in the last year. If it's a D area it's everyone elses fault as well as just the nature of the beast. But if it's in a R area it's because they're a bunch of murderous knuckleheads.
Where you getting this from? it sure wasn't from me. I just posted about our "D" knucklehead major.
Now that we got that out of the way, you believe the best way to reduce x is by reducing y. This is clearly not the only factor. If you would stop and thank you would realize desantis was more successful than most at keeping x down.
Successful keeping deaths down, pure nonsense. Did he have a magic cure for people that were infected?  ::)

For the hundredth time he has a major problem going on right now with infections. What is he doing to curb this to prevent more deaths? Masks help but for political reasons he is against it.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 6819
  • Total likes: 1385
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2021, 04:08:11 PM »
Where you getting this from? it sure wasn't from me. I just posted about our "D" knucklehead major. Successful keeping deaths down, pure nonsense. Did he have a magic cure for people that were infected?  ::)

No, because he doesn't care about infections. He made sure those at highest risk were well protected. At this point anyone who is at risk and not vaccinated is their own problem.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10185
  • Total likes: 3301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #56 on: August 08, 2021, 04:09:49 PM »
At this point anyone who is at risk and not vaccinated is their own problem.
Now I will ask the question again that you avoided like the plague in the other thread. Who is going to speak for and protect the children?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10185
  • Total likes: 3301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #57 on: August 08, 2021, 04:10:37 PM »
No, because he doesn't care about infections.
Thank you for clearing that up.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 6819
  • Total likes: 1385
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2021, 04:17:02 PM »
Now I will ask the question again that you avoided like the plague in the other thread. Who is going to speak for and protect the children?
God. They're barely affected by the virus.


ETA: Are there any decisions parents can make, or does government get to decide everything for them?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10185
  • Total likes: 3301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: #DeathSantis
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2021, 04:21:45 PM »
God.
Lets not go there or we will used that for the unborn also.  ;)
ETA: Are there any decisions parents can make, or does government get to decide everything for them?
Almost all decision are left up to the parents except when it effects the child's wellbeing. Can we agree that car seats are necessary government regulation? 
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch