Author Topic: Trust in medical expertise  (Read 4138 times)

Online Ver hut gazugt

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jan 2021
  • Posts: 135
  • Total likes: 130
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: New york
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2021, 02:27:33 PM »
What to make sure I understand and not put words in your mouth. Do you mean the article says he blamed the Jewish community when he did no such thing?

Those who think Fauci is arrogant, speaks in absolutes or does not know what he is talking about should watch the clip in the link.


I watched and to me it sounded arrogant. He talks in absolutes, when Israel and U.K are showing that vaccines at this time ( which may change) are not fully stopping the virus.
He also says, Orthodox Jews not getting vaccinated, not some Orthodox Jews. He should know better.

This could be one of those cdc videos where different people see different things.

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 4661
  • Total likes: 5106
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2021, 02:29:13 PM »
This is infuriating. You have to really parse his words to see if he's saying the outbreak was because Chassidic Jews as a whole don't vaccinate or the specific outbreak was within a select few who don't. He didn't use the word among you use here, he said with. Regardless, the fact that it's even a discussion is nuts. There was no need for him to single out Jews. It didn't strengthen his point, it is likely not true that Jews vaccinate less, and it causes REAL harm to actual humans. We both know he would NEVER speak about black or Latino communities being disproportionately under-vaccinated for covid so flippantly, especially in the context of ruining herd immunity for everyone else who is "doing their part". He's THE public face of covid and even he can't be more careful with his words.

I get the frustration, but IMO he wasn't trying to call anyone out. His point was that when the vax rate falls below a certain threshold within a herd, outbreaks happen. It's not a "select few," because then there would only be a select few cases, not an outbreak. I would have loved for him to have used a different example, but that's the only recent one that comes to my mind. (There are probably others I wasn't aware of. This one stuck with me for obvious reasons.)
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10372
  • Total likes: 3355
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2021, 02:30:49 PM »
This is infuriating. You have to really parse his words to see if he's saying the outbreak was because Chassidic Jews as a whole don't vaccinate or the specific outbreak was within a select few who don't. He didn't use the word among you use here, he said with. Regardless, the fact that it's even a discussion is nuts. There was no need for him to single out Jews. It didn't strengthen his point, it is likely not true that Jews vaccinate less, and it causes REAL harm to actual humans. We both know he would NEVER speak about black or Latino communities being disproportionately under-vaccinated for covid so flippantly, especially in the context of ruining herd immunity for everyone else who is "doing their part". He's THE public face of covid and even he can't be more careful with his words.
Your views are well known when it comes to these issues.
He did not blame anyone or say anyone caused anything. He gave an example. Did he need to say it was a specific group to make his point, no.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline iwlw2

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 189
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2021, 02:33:02 PM »
Some would say this thread has gone off-topic from its origins (I know, absolutely shocking that can happen on DDF), but I think this whole discussion actually does tie back as well to the trust in medical expertise. I know some have mentioned upthread, but it bears restating in light of the above, when people who are supposed to be medical experts reveal their inherent biases (or in this case latent bias, I dont believe Fauci is an outright anti-Semite, its the soft bigotry of reverting to identifying by group without any reason to mention the group), it also harms their credibility on their area of expertise. So for example when people screaming about lockdowns abruptly reverse course when it comes to BLM protests, it does kind of weaken their standing to go back to asking for lockdowns from everybody again....

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10372
  • Total likes: 3355
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2021, 02:36:07 PM »
I watched and to me it sounded arrogant. He talks in absolutes, when Israel and U.K are showing that vaccines at this time ( which may change) are not fully stopping the virus.
We watched different videos.  :)
The one I watched he said you don't know, I think, you can't predict, just an estimate over 30 times in a couple minute segment
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10372
  • Total likes: 3355
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2021, 02:38:06 PM »
Some would say this thread has gone off-topic from its origins (I know, absolutely shocking that can happen on DDF), but I think this whole discussion actually does tie back as well to the trust in medical expertise. I know some have mentioned upthread, but it bears restating in light of the above, when people who are supposed to be medical experts reveal their inherent biases (or in this case latent bias, I dont believe Fauci is an outright anti-Semite, its the soft bigotry of reverting to identifying by group without any reason to mention the group), it also harms their credibility on their area of expertise. So for example when people screaming about lockdowns abruptly reverse course when it comes to BLM protests, it does kind of weaken their standing to go back to asking for lockdowns from everybody again....
Would the problem be us and not the experts?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline iwlw2

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 189
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2021, 02:42:02 PM »
Your views are well known when it comes to these issues.
He did not blame anyone or say anyone caused anything. He gave an example. Did he need to say it was a specific group to make his point, no.
I think we can all imagine what would have happened had he said the exact same thing and just substituted "blacks in Harlem" for Chassidic Jews. The point is he would probably be careful not to do that, but was not similarly careful not to do this, and thats disapointing as well as potentially harmful. And since most of us are part of the group that stands to be harmed from his carelessness in word choice, you can understand why some of us are annoyed.

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 3026
  • Total likes: 7029
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2021, 02:46:27 PM »
We watched different videos.  :)
The one I watched he said you don't know, I think, you can't predict, just an estimate over 30 times in a couple minute segment

WHAT could he not predict though? The threshold for herd immunity. What he CAN predict is that some threshold exists. What @Ver hut gazugt is saying is that places like Israel and Iceland prove that there is most definitely no such certainty that any vaccination threshold will lead to herd immunity with covid.

Your views are well known when it comes to these issues.
He did not blame anyone or say anyone caused anything. He gave an example. Did he need to say it was a specific group to make his point, no.

What are you talking about? The example he gave was Jews for not getting vaccinated and causing an outbreak. On what planet is that not blaming or saying they caused something?
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 4661
  • Total likes: 5106
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2021, 02:48:51 PM »
What are you talking about? The example he gave was Jews for not getting vaccinated and causing an outbreak. On what planet is that not blaming or saying they caused something?

Why do you need to hear it as a victim? He said they experienced an outbreak, not caused one.
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10372
  • Total likes: 3355
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2021, 02:52:30 PM »
I think we can all imagine what would have happened had he said the exact same thing and just substituted "blacks in Harlem" for Chassidic Jews. The point is he would probably be careful not to do that, but was not similarly careful not to do this, and thats disapointing as well as potentially harmful. And since most of us are part of the group that stands to be harmed from his carelessness in word choice, you can understand why some of us are annoyed.
I am agreeing and understand why some are upset. @Yehuda57 is very passionate when it comes to this issue.

What if said in response to not being vaccinated. Parts of the black community are refusing to get vaccinated because of Tuskegee.  Should they be outraged?
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 889
  • Total likes: 977
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2021, 02:53:27 PM »
However, it would leave me with the impression that the CDC and such are maybe not the best people to look to in such a quickly evolving and novel situation.
That is exactly the reason the CDC was created, to allow a single centralized body to analyze and integrate medical knowledge for responding to this sort of novel situation. 
https://www.cdc.gov/about/organization/mission.htm

Mission:
Whether diseases start at home or abroad, are chronic or acute, curable or preventable, human error or deliberate attack, CDC fights disease and supports communities and citizens to do the same...

CDC Role:
Detecting and responding to new and emerging health threats
Tackling the biggest health problems causing death and disability for Americans
Putting science and advanced technology into action to prevent disease

You may not approve of the way they do their job, but that is the job that we (as a country) have asked them to do.

Quote
For example, I don't think Dr. Fauci is a bad guy, he's just way out of his zone.

Again, I disagree with this.  This is exactly his zone.  This is the same role he played in the US response to AIDS, MERS, SARS1, Ebola, Zika... He was the public face, not doing the nitty gritty lab work.  Most of us either missed those times or didn't pay attention, but among infectious disease specialists, he was widely applauded for that work, which is why he was one of the few kept on from the previous administration. 


Quote
"We need to follow the data and the science" is a weak slogan seemingly intended more to cover their rears than actual evolving along with the situation.

Quote
rather saying over and over again we don't know, but this is what our best guess is. I have personally spoken to doctors about various aspects of COVID as it related to myself and family members, and paradoxically the ones who prefaced every statement with "we really don't know, but this is what we think and our educated guess about how to be safest given the currently available information" were the ones I trusted the most.

I'm not seeing the difference between these. 

Quote
Secondly, as you wrote below, its not as easy as you might think to go back and find concrete examples, but has there not been any statements which you felt that even at the time they were said too strongly and seemingly contrary to some basic available information?

No, nothing I can remember.  Does that say something about my memory?  ::)

But I think part of that might be due to the sources that I rely on, as I've noted elsewhere.  I don't use WhatsApp or Facebook or Instagram.  I've listened to many of Fauci's press conferences and interviews, most of which are in the 30-60 minute range, so I'm not seeing individual "statements" that seem inappropriate. I read the NY Times science articles, which give easier to grasp messages from Fauci's talks, filled in with the basic science background, often written by journalists who themselves have degrees in the sciences.  I read other online sources that are mostly longer form, rather than tweets. 

Where are you (or your friends) hearing these statements that seem too strong or contradictory?

Because it sounds like you're saying some of the distrust comes from the way the message is being presented:

Quote
Again its somewhat due to the nature of the process and so on, but getting up after the fact and admitting openly and clearly "yes, we were wrong about this and we are now advising something else" would also go a long way. I hear what you're saying about that being almost inevitable with the way this works, but its all about the presentation. We are not all scientists nor do we usually see how the hotdog is made.

Quote
And that brings up a third point which I think evolves from that. Scientists should not be telling us how to guard our health or get better, that is the job for our doctors (of course based on the conclusions and research done by the scientists). .. It is simply ludicrous to have one general medical guidance for 300 million people.
Sounds like you're cancelling the whole field of Public Health! When we are given advice from the CDC or NIH, it's generally not the lab scientists who give that advice, but rather those working in the field of public health.  Many have degrees in Public Health, others have MDs and have pivoted to the field of public health.  Again, among the roles of the CDC:

Tackling the biggest health problems causing death and disability for Americans
Putting science and advanced technology into action to prevent disease
Promoting healthy and safe behaviors, communities and environment 

They don't deny the role of personal physicians, and in fact have encouraged people to consult with them, but their role definitely is to tell us how to guard our health.

Quote
As such, while I don't think it would necessarily be good public policy to announce that anyone who thinks they had covid does not necessarily need 1 or two shots, a personal doctor can help decide that. Would it be so terrible for the CDC to say "We are still evaluating the data about natural immunity, discuss your situation with your doctor?"

This whole issue about vaccines for covid recoverees has come up several times here, and I'll try to get to it later.  I would just point out that the mistrust has been expressed here for many months before the vaccine became available.

Offline ckmk47

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 6910
  • Total likes: 442
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2021, 02:55:56 PM »
I dont disagree with your premise in day to day medical affairs. But if its COVID related, why would I agree with anything other than what my personal experience has told me?

Again, let me share my personal experience, which I agree is ancedotal. I had a mild case of COVID in March 2020. Lost taste and smell, had headaches and fatigue for a few weeks and BH done with it since after Pesach 2020. I had antibodies and "lost" them by August 2020 but have tested since with antibodies present but not enough to justify a positive according to the lab. 15 is considered positive I have 11.6 consistently. First my doctor told me I dont need the vaccine. Then he changed his mind and said I should get it. Then he said no again and then he said because of variants I should. So do I trust him or not?


Our bodies fight off covid in various ways.  Antibodies is only 1 way.  Since you've been continually exposed to the germ, you're almost certainly able to produce an immune response to fight it off, even if it's not measurable in a lab.

Online jj1000

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 11757
  • Total likes: 2478
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8016
    • View Profile
  • Location: The value of a forum such as this one is not in that one can post a question and receive an answer, but in that the question has most likely been asked before, and the answer is available to him that will but only use the search function.
  • Programs: 1. Search on google. 2. Search in the right board of DDF with a general word or two. 3. Read the wiki. 4. Read the thread. 5. Ask away.
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2021, 02:56:12 PM »
Why do you need to hear it as a victim? He said they experienced an outbreak, not caused one.
More power to you @Yehuda57 PC police work is good for all minorities to try and get their problems not to be public.

I know that in the ID community when you ask many ID docs about measles outbreak they'll think of the recent one in hassidim in NYC. And it is a medical event they will reference. If it should stay in their heads, and not mention the hassidic part, would be great PR if you get them to not mention it was hassidim. More power to you.
See my 5 step program to your left <--

(Real signature under my location)

Offline ckmk47

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 6910
  • Total likes: 442
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2021, 02:59:08 PM »
A community OBGYN was speaking about the covid vaccine's safety and efficacy, and debunking the fertility claims, and said he does not recommend women in their first trimester get vaccinated. Not because it isn't safe, it is, but the first trimester has a much higher rate of miscarriages, and he wouldn't want a young woman to suffer through the guilt and pain of attributing a lost pregnancy to getting the vaccine, r"l.
I understand his sentiment, but even in the first trimester they're at increased risk.

Offline iwlw2

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 189
  • Total likes: 114
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2021, 03:11:47 PM »
I am agreeing and understand why some are upset. @Yehuda57 is very passionate when it comes to this issue.

What if said in response to not being vaccinated. Parts of the black community are refusing to get vaccinated because of Tuskegee.  Should they be outraged?
Thats actually the crux of this, the statement you referenced actually makes sense in its context, as the Tuskegee reason (distrust of the govt. based on experiments allegedly done on black people) is something that applies very specifically to the black community and therefore it makes sense to apply it to them. It also applies to all of them equally even if only some of them would be using it as a reason. Plus, the most anyone can make of it is that because of a certain historical event, some blacks are hesitant to vaccinate.
However in the context of Fauci's statement there was neither any relevance to the Chasidic Jewish community, nor any reason not to vaccinate which applies to anyone in the Chassidic or Jewish community beyond the people who chose not to, which is connected to it. All it does is create a false impression that Chasidic Jewish people don't vaccinate. See the difference?

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 3026
  • Total likes: 7029
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2021, 03:15:04 PM »
I get the frustration, but IMO he wasn't trying to call anyone out.
What he was trying or not trying to do is irrelevant.

Your views are well known when it comes to these issues.

I take issue with this as well, dismissing it as if it's just "Yehuda57 going off again". This stuff actually happens to me, my friends, my neighbors, etc. I had a parent take her kid away from my kid on the playground while muttering about measles. This is a friend of mine: This has been happening with covid as well. Yesterday it was more humorous, I was standing and waiting by an MTA bus stop in a non-Jewish area (the ultimate symbol of wealth) when a woman asked me if I was the owner "of that place" and pointed to a massive building. I cracked up laughing and said no, I don't know that I actually own anything at all. But that belief that every Jewish guy you see must be a landlord or something has gotten my neighbors beaten up. Jews spreading diseases is an age-old claim and is given new life every time the media or a public official makes some sort of "innocuous" comment like what Fauci said. It shouldn't just be me that's bothered, it should bother everyone.

Why do you need to hear it as a victim? He said they experienced an outbreak, not caused one.

Ok. The Jews experienced an outbreak because the Jews didn't vaccinate. I feel much better now, people definitely won't think the Jews did any harm to public health. Some of them even used CC sign up bonuses and got the deluxe experience.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 3026
  • Total likes: 7029
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2021, 03:20:25 PM »

What if said in response to not being vaccinated. Parts of the black community are refusing to get vaccinated because of Tuskegee.  Should they be outraged?

When I listen to Yankee games I hear ads featuring black doctors saying "we know you don't trust public health because they don't treat people of color properly. etc etc, but trust us, we're black, we're doctors, the vaccine is safe etc." Where is that campaign for frum people? Where are the NYS-funded WhatsApp voice notes from doctors and rabonim saying "yeah, we know Cuomo screwed up. We know their Covid rules were unfair. But the vaccine is safe, it's effective, we took it, we're giving it to our children, and we encourage you to get vaccinated"?
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Online Yehuda57

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 3026
  • Total likes: 7029
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2021, 03:23:28 PM »
More power to you @Yehuda57 PC police work is good for all minorities to try and get their problems not to be public.

I know that in the ID community when you ask many ID docs about measles outbreak they'll think of the recent one in hassidim in NYC. And it is a medical event they will reference. If it should stay in their heads, and not mention the hassidic part, would be great PR if you get them to not mention it was hassidim. More power to you.

If ID specialists are studying it, they should think of it as a Chassidic outbreak, as part of the studies should by why the secular anti vax movement infiltrated Chassidic communities, and how can that be prevented. There is a massive difference between discussing and studying an outbreak as a medical event with colleagues and speaking about a targetted minority group on national TV.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Online CountValentine

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 10372
  • Total likes: 3355
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips -1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
  • Location: Poland - Exiled
  • Programs: DAOTYA, DDF Level 3, 5K Lounge
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2021, 03:24:05 PM »
I take issue with this as well, dismissing it as if it's just "Yehuda57 going off again".
You really think this is what I meant? I know this and other issues you have personal experiences.
It is hard to discuss these issues with you. I try to choose my words carefully but that still doesn't work.
You're so far up Trump's a** you can see Giuliani's feet.  HT Baruch

Offline Lurker

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jul 2019
  • Posts: 4661
  • Total likes: 5106
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
  • Location: As always, silence is NOT an admission of agreement on DDF. It just means that people lack the stamina to keep on arguing with made up "facts", illogical arguments, deceiving statements, nasty and degrading comments, and fuzzy math. - @yelped
Re: Trust in medical expertise
« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2021, 03:33:49 PM »
Ok. The Jews experienced an outbreak because the Jews didn't vaccinate. I feel much better now, people definitely won't think the Jews did any harm to public health. Some of them even used CC sign up bonuses and got the deluxe experience.

Here's another one of my unpopular opinions: perhaps we should be more bothered that the first thing that comes to the mind of any ID doc regarding recent measles outbreaks is us. I get the anti-Semitism thing. The woke whataboutisms irk me, but I get those, too. Ultimately, though, we are the most recent and memorable example of an outbreak of a disease which was supposed to be gone. That fact bothers me a whole hell of a lot more than Fauci mentioning it in passing.

(I'm a little sensitive to the issue, because I happen to live in a community with a large anti-vax contingent. I don't believe it's as "fringe" in frum circles as we'd like to believe. I'm sure there are stats somewhere that prove me wrong.)
Failing at maintaining Lurker status.