Demolition of Chevra Anshei Lubawitz of Borough Park

[Just A Jew]

DOB will be there every day. Stop work orders will be the order of the day. This project will take some time.

Demolition was done in haste for obvious reasons, now they can take all the time they want to build.

I get all that. Just saying someone who does business like this is likely to take whatever shortcuts are available to them in the name of profits. And DOB being there doesn't really mean anything.

[Bored Bachur]

What's the punishment/fine for illegal demolition? (Not like it would help with what already happened anyway )

[Yehudaa]

Yeah
 Ok.
Right.
Of course.
Wink wink
Nod nod

-1. I've personally been involved in a similarly-structured deal between two non-jewish arms-length parties.

Again, I know nothing about this case other than what's been posted here, and I'm not disputing the fact that lots of other issues here seem to point to wrongdoing, but the deal structure itself isn't necessarily problematic if the pricing on both sides makes sense.

[ExGingi]

-1. I've personally been involved in a similarly-structured deal between two non-jewish arms-length parties.

Again, I know nothing about this case other than what's been posted here, and I'm not disputing the fact that lots of other issues here seem to point to wrongdoing, but the deal structure itself isn't necessarily problematic if the pricing on both sides makes sense.

Please read the petition (and affidavits) and tell me if this was an arms-length transaction.

The way the demolition took place is just further evidence that these people have total disregard of the law, or of anyone else's interests and concerns besides their own financial gain. As I said Gelt über alles!

[ExGingi]

What's the punishment/fine for illegal demolition? (Not like it would help with what already happened anyway )

Unfortunately not significant enough. A fine will be a mere slap on the wrist which could be passed on to future buyers as part of the cost of the project.

Since this was done in violation of court orders (not sure where that holds once it goes to arbitration) and of BD orders. I think the appropriate punishment would be for him to have to rebuild the shul as per original design, to be used as a shul for at least 5 years after completion, at which point a new board meeting and vote would be required to approve or disapprove his original plan.

[Yehuda57]

CH was back in the day a very diversified neighborhood, Bobov, Skulen and lots of others lived there. How did their shuls remain active after they left? Was the Rebbe's efforts focused on buying the shuls and keeping them open?

Not getting into the discussion of this thread as I know nothing about the story, but in regard to this - the Rebbe strongly encouraged locals to daven in the shuls and keep them running. People (understandably) didn't want to - they wanted to daven in 770, yet the Rebbe repeatedly asked them to keep the shuls running. Many Chassidim did as the Rebbe asked, including my grandfather, and the shul ended up being referred to by his name. At one stage, they were struggling to get a minyan, and the Rebbe said something along the lines of, "tell them if they don't come there to daven, I will. And then you won't have a problem getting a minyan." My wife's grandfather also "adopted" a local shul that would otherwise been empty.

Today all those shuls not only remain open, but they have been renewed, revitalized, and are all booming.

[Yehuda57]

Putting everything aside, it's a nes nobody was killed during this demolition! See 20 seconds into the bottom video.

Holy smokes, that's criminal

[EliJelly]

Not getting into the discussion of this thread as I know nothing about the story, but in regard to this - the Rebbe strongly encouraged locals to daven in the shuls and keep them running. People (understandably) didn't want to - they wanted to daven in 770, yet the Rebbe repeatedly asked them to keep the shuls running. Many Chassidim did as the Rebbe asked, including my grandfather, and the shul ended up being referred to by his name. At one stage, they were struggling to get a minyan, and the Rebbe said something along the lines of, "tell them if they don't come there to daven, I will. And then you won't have a problem getting a minyan." My wife's grandfather also "adopted" a local shul that would otherwise been empty.

Today all those shuls not only remain open, but they have been renewed, revitalized, and are all booming.

That's for shuls owned by a congregation board, new members are voted in and they decide to keep the shul open. My question was more about the shteiblach which were owned by the rov/rebbe, what happened after they relocated out of CH, I'm sure they sold their house and shul, was an effort made to buy them off to keep those open as a shul?

[Ver hut gazugt]

That's for shuls owned by a congregation board, new members are voted in and they decide to keep the shul open. My question was more about the shteiblach which were owned by the rov/rebbe, what happened after they relocated out of CH, I'm sure they sold their house and shul, was an effort made to buy them off to keep those open as a shul?

afaik, it was impossible to save all the Shuls, only those that where in ch proper survived. Those that where outside the boundary except maybe one or two did not survive.
Till today there are still house shuls from that time. Not sure if there are some others that where sold or not.

[Yehuda57]

That's for shuls owned by a congregation board, new members are voted in and they decide to keep the shul open. My question was more about the shteiblach which were owned by the rov/rebbe, what happened after they relocated out of CH, I'm sure they sold their house and shul, was an effort made to buy them off to keep those open as a shul?

The shuls I was speaking about were shtieblach formerly owned by a rov/rebbe. In the days of white flight, when they were leaving CH, they weren't really worth very much at all. I'm sure each shul has its own story and history, and I am totally clueless about the details, but for the most part, it seems to me there hasn't been very much in the way of fights over ownership. There is one shul that does have that fight that comes to mind, but I don't believe it was ever "owned" by a rov/rebbe, and instead the fights have been with a board - the exact opposite of what you are saying.

[ExGingi]

Holy smokes, that's criminal

Not the only thing criminal in this fiasco, but this could have ended up in דיני נפשות ר"ל!

[ExGingi]

That's for shuls owned by a congregation board, new members are voted in and they decide to keep the shul open. My question was more about the shteiblach which were owned by the rov/rebbe, what happened after they relocated out of CH, I'm sure they sold their house and shul, was an effort made to buy them off to keep those open as a shul?

The shuls I was speaking about were shtieblach formerly owned by a rov/rebbe. In the days of white flight, when they were leaving CH, they weren't really worth very much at all. I'm sure each shul has its own story and history, and I am totally clueless about the details, but for the most part, it seems to me there hasn't been very much in the way of fights over ownership. There is one shul that does have that fight that comes to mind, but I don't believe it was ever "owned" by a rov/rebbe, and instead the fights have been with a board - the exact opposite of what you are saying.

Encouraged local residents to daven and/or take over shuls that were "abandoned" by their congregations. This was obviously limited. But in the 80s many of the shtieblach (mostly in the area south of Eastern Parkway that remained, at least partly, Jewish). Some have been renamed and rebuilt by now. One (Kerestir) is unfortunately gone (I remember when the Rebbe went to that mikvah, when the regular mikvah was under repairs). These were mostly shtieblach in what was originally built as two family houses, multi-family building (Kerestir), or mixed-use properties (Skver).

Of the Shuls that were built as Shuls in the first place, Chovevei Torah was converted (initially partially, and later fully) into a Yeshiva building. Young Israel was demolished with condominiums built on top and a shul in the basement/ground floor. Beis Dovid Gershon resisted local Lubavitch residents, and is still controlled by the Rabbi's family that isn't local. Empire Shtieble is probably the most vibrant shul in Crown Heights other than 770.  Yeshiva Reiness is part of Oholei Torah (not sure if there's a balebatishe minyan there on Shabbos & YT any longer. There definitely used to be in the 80s.

I forgot to mention Maple Street Shul, which had an annual Melave Malka which used to be announced at the Rebbe's farbrengen, in the years when no Yidden lived on that block or neighboring blocks. Unfortunately, that shul has also been the subject of fights between factions. I'm not sure of the status now. IINM at some point it was rented to a Yeshiva. It is important to note that the purpose-built shuls in Crown Heights were not frame construction, but rather brick and mortar!

Also to be clear about the areas where shtieblech were mostly saved, it is the area of which the boundaries are: Eastern Parkway to the north, Lefferts Avenue to the south. New York Avenue to the west and Utica Avenue to the East (except Cong. Bnai Shlomo Zalman which is just east of Utica Avenue on President Street, slightly outside of the boundaries I am describing). Also what is currently known as Beis Rivka Crown Street has a beautiful shul - I'm not sure if it was a separate entity or a part of Yeshiva of Crown Heights which sold their property to Beis Rivka. It is slightly outside the boundaries I described, being on Crown Street between New York and Nostrand Avenues.

[Yehuda57]

I forgot to mention Maple Street Shul, which had an annual Melave Malka which used to be announced at the Rebbe's farbrengen, in the years when no Yidden lived on that block or neighboring blocks.

And those fundraising efforts is what gave us this

Here is a Megama concert from some time in the '80s in the Maple Street Shul in Crown Heights.
https://soundcloud.com/ddf-sod/sets/megama-live-maple-street-shul

[ExGingi]

And those fundraising efforts is what gave us this

The early 80s were probably the low point of Jewish residency in Crown Heights. The Rebbe fought hard to stop the bleeding.

[ExGingi]

Please read the petition (and affidavits) and tell me if this was an arms-length transaction.

The way the demolition took place is just further evidence that these people have total disregard of the law, or of anyone else's interests and concerns besides their own financial gain. As I said Gelt über alles!

@Yehudaa I'm eagerly awaiting to hear what you have to say after reading the documents.

[hvaces42]

-1. I've personally been involved in a similarly-structured deal between two non-jewish arms-length parties.

Again, I know nothing about this case other than what's been posted here, and I'm not disputing the fact that lots of other issues here seem to point to wrongdoing, but the deal structure itself isn't necessarily problematic if the pricing on both sides makes sense.

Everyone understands contribution to investments in arms-length transactions.

The takeover of the board of the shul with questionable tactics by strawmen for the developer is what makes this so egregious.

We had another instance where a developer came into Boro Park requesting a zoning change on a property near a yeshiva that would have changed the character of the neighborhood due to its sheer size. Local Rabbonim were against it. I remember a representative on the community board voting against it at the request of some very chasuve rabbonim. But as with all of theses types of situations, the politicians were paid off in campaign donations and the project was approved.

One of the agreements was that they would provide 1.5 parking spaces per apartment for the nearly 170 apartments they were building. They installed ~60 car lifts that could park cars vertically in the garage knowing full well that the ceiling height was not sufficient to allow for parking any more than the lower portion of the lift. The kicker was that as part of the zoning resolution that authorized the change the only people who could complain legally about any overbuilding or improper building on the property was an organization from...Williamsburg...which was, as expected, controlled by the developer.

The project has been built and has been a boon to the neighborhood. However, as a practical matter, the underhanded nature of the entire process left a bad taste in many peoples mouths. Thankfully parking hasnt been the issue. Shoddy construction has been. The facade started shedding pieces as soon as people moved in. And now there is talk of them selling off a piece of undeveloped vacant land for an office building that was never part of the original disclosed project.

[Yehudaa]

@Yehudaa I'm eagerly awaiting to hear what you have to say after reading the documents.

I don't plan on reading them.

I originally replied to your comment about the deal structure being unfair, to which I said that the structure itself doesn't seem problematic. If the parties were related or the pricing on either side is not justifiable, then yes, I agree with you that the deal seems to be a sham.

[Moish613]

https://twitter.com/hasidic_1/status/1770413247411134527

[ExGingi]

https://twitter.com/hasidic_1/status/1770413247411134527

If anyone has any inroads with Rabbi Eichenstein or any of the other Rabbonim that sat on the D.T., I think it would be helpful to suggest the following:

Unfortunately not significant enough. A fine will be a mere slap on the wrist which could be passed on to future buyers as part of the cost of the project.

Since this was done in violation of court orders (not sure where that holds once it goes to arbitration) and of BD orders. I think the appropriate punishment would be for him to have to rebuild the shul as per original design, to be used as a shul for at least 5 years after completion, at which point a new board meeting and vote would be required to approve or disapprove his original plan.

[ckmk47]

My question was more about the shteiblach which were owned by the rov/rebbe, what happened after they relocated out of CH, I'm sure they sold their house and shul, was an effort made to buy them off to keep those open as a shul?

Theoretically, a shtibel with an active Rebbe was likely just moving (out of CH)- not closing. Although many of the CH sites of those shuls are still active shuls today.