CV's Copy - ISRAEL-HAMAS

[CountValentine]

He's still around giving interviews and such, but not in an official capacity. He recently gave a very good one (judging from people's reactions, didn't watch it myself).

Only seen his official interviews and I never seen a bad one.

[EliJelly]

What if the civilians were completely unaffiliated with the aggresor? Would anything be different?

Unaffiliated in what, not even in the aggressors party? Of course that would be different.

[aygart]

So if one war 20% of the population was fighters and another war 30% where fighters do you adjust for that?
What if population density is different. Do you adjust for that?
I can list many more. 

There are tons of different factors that can create fluctuations

[CountValentine]

There are tons of different factors that can create fluctuations

...and everyone will use the ones that benefits there point the best.

[imayid2]

Unaffiliated in what, not even in the aggressors party? Of course that would be different.

Everyone just throws around "civilians" as if they are all equal. I suspect many do not think there is any differentiation.

[EliJelly]

Everyone just throws around "civilians" as if they are all equal. I suspect many do not think there is any differentiation.

Talking of civilians in Gaza though, they're absolutely part of the aggressor's party, just as the civilians in Berlin and in Dresden were.   

[aygart]

...and everyone will use the ones that benefits there point the best.

Of course. Let's deal with that by making a range of reasonable numbers or is either within a range of reasonability or out isn't.

[CountValentine]

Talking of civilians in Gaza though, they're absolutely part of the aggressor's party, just as the civilians in Berlin and in Dresden were.

Does the aggressor designation every change during the war?

[CountValentine]

Of course. Let's deal with that by making a range of reasonable numbers or is either within a range of reasonability or out isn't.

I was doing a google search for ratio numbers. They are all over the place form a low of 10% and a high of 90%. Also, massive ranges for the same war.

[aygart]

Does the aggressor designation every change during the war?

I can only see that happening if the original aggressor totally puts down arms

[EliJelly]

Does the aggressor designation every change during the war?

It should always be the one who started the war and while the other side responds with the sole goal of eliminating that threat.

[aygart]

I was doing a google search for ratio numbers. They are all over the place form a low of 10% and a high of 90%. Also, massive ranges for the same war.

The wide ranges within a war are to be expected. The only thing really to view is the overall performance on average. We know that incidents are going to happen that will will kill large numbers of civilians possibly entirely in error. We know that these things happen during the war and are expected. if they happen too often that tells you something's wrong

[imayid2]

Talking of civilians in Gaza though, they're absolutely part of the aggressor's party, just as the civilians in Berlin and in Dresden were.

I think many see completely innocent civilians the same, no matter to which party they belong

Random search
https://lieber.westpoint.edu/collateral-damage-innocent-bystanders-war/
The ethical problem with the principle of proportionality is that it does not differentiate between innocent and non-innocent civilians. Undoubtedly, many civilians are not responsible for the decision to wage an unjust war and play no role in the war fighting effort of their State. They are thus entirely innocent of the unjust threat posed by their government and maintain their moral immunity from attack. Yet, under the principle of proportionality, the incidental killing of five innocent children is legally assessed in the same manner as the incidental killing of five non-innocent munitions workers. A military advantage that would legally justify killing the munitions workers would similarly justify killing the children. Nevertheless, there is no moral basis for knowingly killing the five children. They have done nothing to forfeit their right to life and are thus innocent bystanders to the war.

[EliJelly]

I think many see completely innocent civilians the same, no matter to which party they belong

The ones who would be against nuking Hiroshima and carpet bombing Dresden.

[imayid2]

The ones who would be against nuking Hiroshima and carpet bombing Dresden.

Maybe. Or perhaps they’d argue that the need in that circumstance would’ve warranted the killing of civilians from any party, hypothetically.

[aygart]

https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-800772

[Ver hut gazugt]

...and everyone will use the ones that benefits there point the best.

form what I understand. They dont provide a number because it may be used against them.

[CountValentine]

form what I understand. They dont provide a number because it may be used against them.

They are getting pounded every day by remaining silent and giving the impression they are hiding something. 

[zh cohen]

You see my point? Use the metric that favors your position.

Aren't you "Mr. Goalposts"?

[CountValentine]

Aren't you "Mr. Goalposts"?

I am pointing out all the different metrics. You want goal posts? 

Rough numbers.
Population of Iraq during war 30mm
Civilians killed 200k

Population of Gaza during the war 2mm
Civilians killed ??

Which will have a lower ratio?