Why is there so much lashon hora on here about restaurants (and other things)

[imayid2]

Why is it LH for someone to read that restaurant x which he never plans to be by, doesn’t make great food?

[yelped]

No

Ok, so basically you were writing a PSA to the reader and the writer should go ahead and write ltoeles.

[Yehudaa]

Two thoughts:

1. A few people have mentioned in this thread that they appreciate honest reviews in determining where to eat, etc. The fact that you read reviews and that you appreciate them (I do too) does not mean it's muttar. It can be very useful, but still totally assur. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

2. Personally I think it's quite hard to keep all the conditions set out in @mevinyavin 's summary here. To be sure, I just went and looked at some food reviews on DDF, and here are some examples:

- Rule # 2 requires that "One must be entirely factual, and not exaggerate even slightly. Thus, one must also avoid using opinionated negative words like terrible or awful." In looking around, I found lots of non-objective, exaggerated words like "terribly dry" or "inedible", which is almost certainly a stretch. (Note: if you're a foodie, your "inedible" is likely edible to lots of people who aren't so into their food.)

- Rule #4 says that "Believing that the product line as a whole is bad just because yours was defective is, to say the least, unscientific." This would seem to disqualify a lot of what's written. Some examples from what I found: Your meat was burnt? Well, are you sure that they burn everyone's meat, or maybe that was an exception. Or the manager yelled at you? Well, did you see him yelling on other days, or is it possible that his house burnt down this morning and your request was the straw that broke the camel's back? (As a personal example for Rule #4, I once ordered a dish at a restaurant and it was fantastic. Went back a few weeks later, and the same dish was overdone. Had that happened on my first time, clearly a negative review wouldn't have been warranted, knowing that it may be the exception.)

- Rule #3 requires that "One must be motivated by the need to help others avoid the pain that one experienced, and not motivated by a desire for revenge." I can't speak for others, but personally, if I'm 100% honest with myself, when I've felt like leaving a bad review for a business, more often than not it was at least a bit motivated by a desire to get back after feeling like I was ripped off by a bad experience. Even if there would  be a toeles, I'm pretty sure that disqualifies me from saying it, even if it would also help others.

In short, IMHO:

- CAN a negative review be allowed? Yes
- ARE most negative reviews written in an allowable manner? No
- Does helpful=muttar? No

[Yehudaa]

Something I struggled with in writing my post above- I really wanted to quote specific reviews from DDF to illustrate my point, but I did not think it was right to use any specific user's post as an example of lashon harah. I didn't even want to quote specific language without linking to posts, as anyone can search for it to see who wrote it, if they wanted.

It's a shame, as there were some really great examples.

[imayid2]

https://jewishjournal.com/community/362259/why-are-there-no-kosher-restaurant-critics/

[Dan]

https://jewishjournal.com/community/362259/why-are-there-no-kosher-restaurant-critics/

So lots of influencers, who are paid by restaurants, think we don't need critics.
OK.

[Dan]

Yes, it is possible to thread the needle.

[EliJelly]

https://jewishjournal.com/community/362259/why-are-there-no-kosher-restaurant-critics/

I'm afraid too many people here will just pass on reading this long article and they might miss this hit of a line, so here it is.

"David Weinbach, a Brooklyn- based Orthodox comedian, who once won The Jewish Week’s Funniest Comic Contest, said he remembered an ironic moment.

“I was at a kosher deli, and I ordered tongue,” Weinbach said. “I didn’t like it. The waiter said, ‘what’s wrong? It wasn’t good?’ I told him, ‘it was lashon hara.’”

[HudZ]

I'm afraid too many people here will just pass on reading this long article and they might miss this hit of a line, so here it is.

"David Weinbach, a Brooklyn- based Orthodox comedian, who once won The Jewish Week’s Funniest Comic Contest, said he remembered an ironic moment.

“I was at a kosher deli, and I ordered tongue,” Weinbach said. “I didn’t like it. The waiter said, ‘what’s wrong? It wasn’t good?’ I told him, ‘it was lashon hara.’”

I personally don't speak Lashon Harah, but my neighbors, forget about it.

[Gvann]

I don't think so.

For example, we said specific examples can be given l'toeles, but using words can be exaggerating, and shouldn't be done.

For example:

Plain and simple, the amount of lashon hara on here about restaurants is astounding. The horrible language

Is that allowed, even according to what you are saying? Or are those the modifiers the OP and the ensuing conversation is specifically calling out?

I think when you're talking about food and using adjectives like that is loshon hara, and I think that defending the torah is not an opinion, loshon hora is horrible thats not an opinionated word in reference to the status of an issur.

[Gvann]

Preciely.

I think a thread on this is great, and elevating the conversation on an online forums, would be excellent as well. But c'mon, when someone calls something out while doing that thing, is, well, I don't know the right word for it.

Hopefully l'toeles something good comes from this specific example explained in full

Actually, I think that by providing specific examples, which is what I did, it can be understood to others what kind of posts promote negativity and can be avoided next time. I hardly think that it was loshon hara without toeles.

[Dan]

I think when you're talking about food and using adjectives like that is loshon hara, and I think that defending the torah is not an opinion, loshon hora is horrible thats not an opinionated word in reference to the status of an issur.

Once the subject was brought up: Another relevant comment from Rabbi Berkovits (last week's parsha!) - hocheach tochiach trumps onaas devarim but not malbin pnei chavero brabim (hence hocheach tochiach - but lo sisa alav chet). This might apply when calling out a member with an identity that is known to the public.

[Gvann]

im not following

[jj1000]

I think when you're talking about food and using adjectives like that is loshon hara, and I think that defending the torah is not an opinion, loshon hora is horrible thats not an opinionated word in reference to the status of an issur.

Actually, I think that by providing specific examples, which is what I did, it can be understood to others what kind of posts promote negativity and can be avoided next time. I hardly think that it was loshon hara without toeles.

Of course, anything you do is justified by toeles and ok, and what others do is not toeles and not ok.

I never suspected anything else.

[Gvann]

Of course, anything you do is justified by toeles and ok, and what others do is not toeles and not ok.

I never suspected anything else.

 saying that the amount of loshon hara on here is astounding is loshon hara?

[aygart]

Why is it LH for someone to read that restaurant x which he never plans to be by, doesn’t make great food?

Why wouldn't it be? It is negative and would pain him?

[Gvann]

Of course, anything you do is justified by toeles and ok, and what others do is not toeles and not ok.

I never suspected anything else.

im sorry but Im really not following your train of thought... opinions in reference to food can be loshon hara, im not sure where saying that loshon hara is horrible is considered loshon hara

[imayid2]

Why wouldn't it be? It is negative and would pain him?

It’s not necessarily negative to not make good food.
Pain who?

[aygart]

It’s not necessarily negative to not make good food.
Pain who?

Say what? It can be not a negative that food for sale is bad?
The owner.

[imayid2]

Say what? It can be not a negative that food for sale is bad?

It reflects negatively on him as a person that he can’t make great food?

The owner.

He has no idea if I personally read something