Author Topic: Halachic Source for no music during sefira  (Read 8323 times)

Offline imayid2

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2022, 02:09:26 AM »
What you're not realizing is that it's the same Issur of Aveilus on the Churban, we're just meikel during the year and machmir during the 3 weeks.
False! Is it only assur bkveuis during the 3 weeks?


In any case, here you have it clear as daylight from R' Yossef Kappach

47. שאלה: האם מותר לשמוע מוזיקה ובפרט בספירת העומר?
תשובה: מותר לשמוע מוזיקה מקלטת או מרדיו (תוספת התלמיד: ואפילו מוזיקה קלאסית), דאינו כלי הניגון ממש. וכן מותר לשמוע שירי קודש (תוספת התלמיד: ומשמע דאפילו מכלי הניגון עצמם). ובספירת העומר אין לחשוש כלל לשום דבר.


http://www.tora.co.il/shiurim/tsuriel/p_kapach.doc


Lol he’s gonna knock out all the standard major poskim?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2022, 02:20:19 AM »

Lol he’s gonna knock out all the standard major poskim?
Did I ever say that?

You said it's unanimous, I disproved you. Now you're moving the goalposts...

There are also other cases like sad music, or 'dveikus' music, or exercise/driving where other Poskim are matir as well.

What percentage of frum people today do you think don't listen to music during Sefira?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline imayid2

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2022, 02:35:18 AM »
There are also other cases like sad music, or 'dveikus' music, or exercise/driving where other Poskim are matir as well.

What percentage of frum people today do you think don't listen to music during Sefira?
My comments are limited to accoppela music which isn’t the genre you are describing.

Offline imayid2

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2022, 02:38:46 AM »


Did I ever say that?

You said it's unanimous, I disproved you. Now you're moving the goalposts...
This is what I actually said
Great thought. But all major poskim since recorded music came on scene firmly disagree. Can you pinpoint one that agrees with you?
You have failed to provide one.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2022, 02:40:03 AM »
My comments are limited to accoppela music which isn’t the genre you are describing.
You were claiming ALL poskim hold a-capella recorded music is Assur???
Then I think you have RMF who is matir in Igros Moshe amongst many others.

You have failed to provide one.
Huh?

, here you have it clear as daylight from R' Yossef Kappach

47. שאלה: האם מותר לשמוע מוזיקה ובפרט בספירת העומר?
תשובה: מותר לשמוע מוזיקה מקלטת או מרדיו (תוספת התלמיד: ואפילו מוזיקה קלאסית), דאינו כלי הניגון ממש. וכן מותר לשמוע שירי קודש (תוספת התלמיד: ומשמע דאפילו מכלי הניגון עצמם). ובספירת העומר אין לחשוש כלל לשום דבר.


http://www.tora.co.il/shiurim/tsuriel/p_kapach.doc



ETA I see you qualified it as 'major' poskim. Ok, no way to define what constitutes a major posek. You only have a handful that have written opinions on the whole topic one way or another.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline imayid2

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2022, 02:42:33 AM »
You were claiming ALL poskim hold a-capella recoreded music is Assur???
Then I think you have RMF who is matir in Igros Moshe amongst many others.
Huh?
I don’t know what you mean.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2022, 02:44:52 AM »
I don’t know what you mean.



My comments are limited to accoppela music which isn’t the genre you are describing.

By ' comments' do you mean you were claiming that ALL poskim hold a-capella recorded music is Assur???

Because then I think you have RMF who is matir in Igros Moshe amongst many others.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline imayid2

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2022, 02:46:18 AM »
By ' comments' do you mean you were claiming that ALL poskim hold a-capella recorded music is Assur???

Because then I think you have RMF who is matir in Igros Moshe amongst many others.
He talks about acapella?

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2022, 02:50:40 AM »
He talks about acapella?
I believe so. This the quote I saw

ובשו"ת אגרות משה אורח חיים (חלק א סימן קסו): וע"י הרדיו אם נשמע זמרא דפומא מותר, ואם בכלי זמר אסור
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline imayid2

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2022, 02:52:25 AM »
I believe so. This the quote I saw

ובשו"ת אגרות משה אורח חיים (חלק א סימן קסו): וע"י הרדיו אם נשמע זמרא דפומא מותר, ואם בכלי זמר אסור
He means someone singing. Not acapella
You are aware of that, which is why you said “I think” -“I believe”.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 02:56:50 AM by imayid2 »

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2022, 02:56:59 AM »
He means someone singing. Not acapella
Please show me one source that differentiates between 'someone singing' and 'Acapella'. I think it's all in your head. There are Poskim who hold both are Mutar and Poskim (Shevet Halevi) that hold both are assur recorded even though they are muttar live since the tape recorder is considered a Keli.

Next you'll say only high quality Acapella is assur and not low quality etc....  ואין לדבר סוף
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline imayid2

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2022, 02:59:07 AM »
amongst many others.
Who else you got?

Please show me one source that differentiates between 'someone singing' and 'Acapella'. I think it's all in your head. There are Poskim who hold both are Mutar and Poskim (Shevet Halevi) that hold both are assur recorded even though they are muttar live since the tape recorder is considered a Keli.
Who?

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2022, 03:07:05 AM »
He means someone singing. Not acapella
You are aware of that, which is why you said “I think” -“I believe”.
No, I simply am too tired to look up RMF inside so qualified it as not being sure what he says
Who else you got?

I'm losing interest in the conversation when you're shifting your arguments. No point going around in circles.

You started with:

All major poskim since recorded music came on scene firmly disagree


Problem is you were “מכוין” to the fact that it’s a “chumra” without knowing that many achronim actually do talk about listening to musical instruments. So I’m not quite sure how many points you get… :P

+ a few other times that you quoted my specifically talking about instrumental recorded music. Then shifted to

 
My comments are limited to accoppela music which isn’t the genre you are describing.




Who?
Start with RMF. Until you can prove there is a distinction, any type of sounds humans can exert are halachically identical. You can't expect Poskim to detail every subtype of singing until you establish there is actually a difference halachichally.

You literally made up some Svara that 'Accapella' is different than 'singing' (clearly, you can't even say where you took it from) and decided all poskim agree with it. SMH

In the meantime, I also have at least R Kpach who paskened even instrumental recorded music is Assur, are you going to claim he holds acapella is assur?  ;D
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 03:13:41 AM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline imayid2

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2022, 03:11:24 AM »
No, I simply am too tired to look up RMF inside so qualified it as not being sure what he says I'm losing interest in the conversation when you're shifting your arguments. No point going around in circles.

You started with:

+ a few other times that you quoted my specifically talking about instrumental recorded music. Then shifted to

 

Start with RMF. Until you can prove there is a distinction, any type of sounds humans can exert are halachically identical. You can't expect Poskim to detail every subtype of singing until you establish there is actually a difference halachichally.

You literally made up some Svara (clearly, you can't even say where you took it from) and decided all poskim agree with it. SMH

In the meantime, I also have at least R Kpach who paskened even instrumental recorded music is Assur, are you going to claim he holds acapella is assur?  ;D
What you’re saying is ridiculous, but I’m also tired. So we’ll leave it here.

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2022, 03:13:12 AM »
What you’re saying is ridiculous
Would carry more weight if you could back that up.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline imayid2

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2022, 03:15:59 AM »
Would carry more weight if you could back that up.
That’s what type of response you get when you point to plain voices singing as proof that accoppela is permitted :P
You gotta prove they are the same, bec logically recorded instrumental music is just a mimic too.

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2022, 03:22:00 AM »
That’s what type of response you get when you point to plain voices singing as proof that accoppela is permitted :P
You gotta prove they are the same, bec logically recorded instrumental music is just a mimic too.

You literally made up some Svara that 'Accapella' is different than 'singing' (clearly, you can't even say where you took it from) and decided all poskim agree with it. SMH


To be more specific, please cite one posek who holds live acapella is Assur, which is what you're saying.

I can't get over how you literally said all poskim agree with you.

I can also say all the Poskim hold eating Sushi on shabbos is Assur because you can't prove anybody says it's muttar.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline imayid2

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2022, 03:26:35 AM »
To be more specific, please cite one posek who holds live acapella is Assur, which is what you're saying.

I can't get over how you literally said all poskim agree with you.

I can also say all the Poskim hold eating Sushi on shabbos is Assur because you can't prove anybody says it's muttar.
Didn’t you read Rabbi Belsky I referenced, and Rav Shloma Miller?
To be clear My comment about all major poskim was about recorded instrumental music, not accoppela, they don’t really talk about it, besides the ones I mentioned, plus a whole slew who prohibit even plain singing.
Sushi at least is logically mutar.

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Offline imayid2

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Re: Halachic Source for no music during sefira
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2022, 11:04:43 AM »
To summarize.
A. The achronim clearly prohibit listening to musical instruments.
B. All major poskim extend that to recorded music, because it has the same/close enough Simcha effect as listening to live music. (Whaddaya think the achronim were only talking about major concerts?)
C. Many poskim include any recorded music, even without accompanying instruments, in this. There is a מקור חיים that explicitly includes live music without instruments, and the above poskim contend that recorded music is even worse.
D. Accoppela music which attempts to mimic the effects of accompanying musical instruments, wasn't a thing until fairly recently, so we don't have much DPs on it. Obviously the poskim in C would prohibit, but that isn't necessarily standard.
So we turn to some logic, if B was assumed prohibited because it mimicked the effects of live music, it reasons this should be the same.
This whole prohibition isn't the same as the year round issur which is much more מעיקר הדין, there these distinctions hold more weight. However here the point is we avoid excessive simcha. So the difference arguably isn't enough.
Now I'm not saying this is going to be universal and unanimously held. In my humble opinion it’s sort of an appropriate attitude thing. But to claim it's "just looking for chumros", is completely absurd. Especialy since that claim was based on a lack of knowledge of points A and B.
I await a retraction on that claim.