The Tamar Epstein Saga

[mordygross]

I am saying that it wasn't always that way, that the advantage the man had was clearly tempered by certain takonos the chachomim made, such as kesubah to prevent divorces for no reason and kofim to force the man to give in certain cases. Yes, it's still not 100%, but it wasn't as big of an issue as it is today, since beis din's enforcement powers are currently a joke.

[meshugener]

I am saying that it wasn't always that way, that the advantage the man had was clearly tempered by certain takonos the chachomim made, such as kesubah to prevent divorces for no reason and kofim to force the man to give in certain cases. Yes, it's still not 100%, but it wasn't as big of an issue as it is today, since beis din's enforcement powers are currently a joke.

As is kesubah (if you know what's going on), so I'm not really sure what your point is.

[mordygross]

Kesubah wasn't always a joke, don't understand your point

[meshugener]

Kesubah wasn't always a joke, don't understand your point

But nowadays it is a joke. And we were discussing the fairness of the current situation.

[mordygross]

But nowadays it is a joke. And we were discussing the fairness of the current situation.

Yes,  I was agreeing,  my original post was that it wasn't always so unfair.

[meshugener]

Yes,  I was agreeing,  my original post was that it wasn't always so unfair.

Ok, now we are just annoying our fellow DDFers with the back and forth.

We all agree that it's not fair. That's it. Time to move on to the birth control thread.

[yuneeq]

Ok, now we are just annoying our fellow DDFers with the back and forth.

We all agree that it's not fair. That's it. Time to move on to the birth control thread.

Time to start the "Why Halacha is unfair" thread.

Here's a few you can start with:

-Can't eat bacon
-Can't play video games on Shabbos
-Can't become a Kohein

[Baruch]

Time to start the "Why Halacha is unfair" thread.

Here's a few you can start with:

-Can't eat bacon
-Can't play video games on Shabbos
-Can't become a Kohein

It is a serious issue. It is not comparable to your examples.
It's a very good kashya. Why did the Torah give a man the power to screw over a woman for life?
I've yet to hear a good answer.
And I just add it to the hundreds of kashyas that we don't have a good answer for.

There are those that because of this problem change the Torah. That's a big problem.
We're not smarter than Hashem.

[yuneeq]

It is a serious issue. It is not comparable to your examples.
It's a very good kashya. Why did the Torah give a man the power to screw over a woman for life?
I've yet to hear a good answer.
And I just add it to the hundreds of kashyas that we don't have a good answer for.

There are those that because of this problem change the Torah. That's a big problem.
We're not smarter than Hashem.

That's like saying that the Torah gave the ability for someone to murder people.

[Baruch]

That's like saying that the Torah gave the ability for someone to murder people.

How? The Torah murders murderers.

[yuneeq]

How? The Torah murders murderers.

That won't bring back the dead.

[Baruch]

That won't bring back the dead.

But how did the torah give the power to murder.
The Torah gives the isur of eishes ish only on a woman, and the power to free only on the man.
I am truly confused.

[yuneeq]

But how did the torah give the power to murder.
The Torah gives the isur of eishes ish only on a woman, and the power to free only on the man.
I am truly confused.

If your point is the "why did create this law", there is nothing I can answer for that.
I understood your point differently at first.

My point is- G-d didn't create this world with the intention for it to be perceived as fair.
There are lots of restrictions from the Torah, and we can spend the rest of our lives griping about it or we can accept it and move on.

[Baruch]

If your point is the "why did create this law", there is nothing I can answer for that.
I understood your point differently at first.

My point is- G-d didn't create this world with the intention for it to be perceived as fair.
There are lots of restrictions from the Torah, and we can spend the rest of our lives griping about it or we can accept it and move on.

That's exactly the point I made in my first post!

It is a serious issue. It is not comparable to your examples.
It's a very good kashya. Why did the Torah give a man the power to screw over a woman for life?
I've yet to hear a good answer.
And I just add it to the hundreds of kashyas that we don't have a good answer for.

There are those that because of this problem change the Torah. That's a big problem.
We're not smarter than Hashem.

[churnbabychurn]

דרכיה דרכי נועם וכל נתיבותיה שלום

איסתכל באוריתא וברא עלמא

The Torah is perfect. Any perceived imperfection is merely a reflection of our flawed selves.

Your kashes are not kashes. Clearly it is best for a woman to feel securely locked into a marriage. We can debate the psychology and benefits all night, but it is definitely exactly the way it is supposed to be.

[yuneeq]

That's exactly the point I made in my first post!

No it's not.
You strongly said that that somehow agunah is different than my example.
The answer is that there are many laws that we don't understand.
It's not harder to understand agunah vs parah aduma or eating pig.

Eta:  I now understand the confusion. I misunderstood you because you contradicted yourself.

[meshugener]

Clearly it is best for a woman to feel securely locked into a marriage.

You are a character.

You'd find much more people sympathizing with your way of thinking in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Please tell me you were not being serious.

[churnbabychurn]

You are a character.

You'd find much more people sympathizing with your way of thinking in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Please tell me you were not being serious.

It's all in good spirit.

But anyway, I could care less if my way of thinking jives with western culture.

[meshugener]

It's all in good spirit.

But anyway, I could care less if my way of thinking jives with western culture.

Well, you're a piece of I don't wanna say what.

Seriously? Women appreciate being locked up in a marriage?

[aygart]

Well, you're a piece of I don't wanna say what.

Seriously? Women appreciate being locked up in a marriage?

I would imagine he means while they are happily married