The Tamar Epstein Saga

[AJK]

I'm sure you care about isur aishes ish more than RSK and RNG. You love Hashem and his Torah much more than them. In fact if we'd lock you and them up in a room with an aishes ish, they'd succumb way before you, because you care so much more about the inyan of aishes ish. Gimme a break!

Lol

[SayWhat]

Lol

That's funny to you?

Baruch just made the most asinine comment and all you have is LOL?

Baruch - if you admit that the heter is hard to defend which would make her still married to husband #1 - Why is the discussion not about Eishes Ish?

By your own admission some of the biggest Gedolim were involved in incorrectly being matir an Eishes Ish and your concerned about their Koved? Have you lost your mind?

[Baruch]

That's funny to you?

Baruch just made the most asinine comment and all you have is LOL?

Baruch - if you admit that the heter is hard to defend which would make her still married to husband #1 - Why is the discussion not about Eishes Ish?

By your own admission some of the biggest Gedolim were involved in incorrectly being matir an Eishes Ish and your concerned about their Koved? Have you lost your mind?

Of course the question is about an aishes ish.
But those who still demand respect for the Rabbanim don't care less about isur aishes ish. They care more about Kavod of the Rabbanim.
I never said "some of the biggest Gedolim were involved in incorrectly being matir an Eishes Is".
I said that it is very hard to defend the heter. (it may be because we lack information).

Just curious, can you please name me the two major sefarim printed surrounding the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch Even Ha'ezer (w/o looking it up)? Because you gotta at least know that to conclude that two massive talmidei chachamim "were involved in incorrectly being matir an Eishes Ish".

[AJK]

That's funny to you?

Baruch just made the most asinine comment and all you have is LOL?

Yes, I found it quite humorous, indeed.

The implication OP was making, which you missed, deliberately or otherwise, is the undisputed fact that the people you're referring to are yirei shamayim to a degree which you likely cannot even fathom. But it's easy for you, on some silly virtual forum, to cast stones as you hide behind your virtual pseudonym.

So go on, in all your infinite wisdom, casting aspersions left and right. I hope you have a good lawyer after 120.

[Drago]

Who wants to know my opinion on this matter??

[churnbabychurn]

Who wants to know my opinion on this matter??

Me

[SayWhat]

Of course the question is about an aishes ish.
But those who still demand respect for the Rabbanim don't care less about isur aishes ish. They care more about Kavod of the Rabbanim.
I never said "some of the biggest Gedolim were involved in incorrectly being matir an Eishes Is".
I said that it is very hard to defend the heter. (it may be because we lack information).

Just curious, can you please name me the two major sefarim printed surrounding the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch Even Ha'ezer (w/o looking it up)? Because you gotta at least know that to conclude that two massive talmidei chachamim "were involved in incorrectly being matir an Eishes Ish".

I get it now. Its ok for you to say "I think that everyone in this discussion agrees that the heter is very hard to defend" but I have to pass your test to repeat it?

Let's use baseball as an analogy. Ground ball to third base, third baseman throws to first and the first base umpire calls him safe. The manager calls for a review. As that is happening the viewers at home and in the stadium see the play in slow motion clearly showing the baserunner is out. The officials review the play and as can be seen by everyone they call the runner out. Now the first base umpire stands there and refuses to allow the game to go on insisting that he called the runner safe and nothing is going to change his mind.

There have been no less than 20 Rabonim and Poskim that have "reviewed" this case and all agree without a shadow of a doubt that the runner is out. Don't blame me for pointing out that the runner is out.

If the umpire who gets paid to uphold the integrity of the game can't admit that he made a mistake he should be removed from the game even if his kovad takes a hit.

What is more important the integrity of the Torah or the Kovad of a Talmud Chuchum?

If you don't realize the dangerous precedent that is going to set for Inyani Gitten than you are a fool.

[dealfinder85]

Yes, I found it quite humorous, indeed.

The implication OP was making, which you missed, deliberately or otherwise, is the undisputed fact that the people you're referring to are yirei shamayim to a degree which you likely cannot even fathom. But it's easy for you, on some silly virtual forum, to cast stones as you hide behind your virtual pseudonym.

So go on, in all your infinite wisdom, casting aspersions left and right. I hope you have a good lawyer after 120.

from the rules of Just Shmooze:
-Even on this board there are no advertisements allowed whatsoever.

[SayWhat]

Yes, I found it quite humorous, indeed.

The implication OP was making, which you missed, deliberately or otherwise, is the undisputed fact that the people you're referring to are yirei shamayim to a degree which you likely cannot even fathom. But it's easy for you, on some silly virtual forum, to cast stones as you hide behind your virtual pseudonym.

So go on, in all your infinite wisdom, casting aspersions left and right. I hope you have a good lawyer after 120.

What did I say that you found so offensive? Was it that I said that I now have a better understanding to what Dovid Hamelach wrote in Tehillim 34:19-20 - Hashem is close to the brokenhearted & those crushed in spirit He saves. Many are the mishaps of the righteous but from them all Hashem rescues them.
Because you believe in papal infallibility is not my problem - that's the other religion.

[dealfinder85]

What did I say that you found so offensive? Was it that I said that I now have a better understanding to what Dovid Hamelach wrote in Tehillim 34:19-20 - Hashem is close to the brokenhearted & those crushed in spirit He saves. Many are the mishaps of the righteous but from them all Hashem rescues them.
Because you believe in papal infallibility is not my problem - that's the other religion.

why are you hiding behind an alias?

[churnbabychurn]

There seems to be two schools of thought here.  (there are many others but theses are the mainstream)

a) AJK, Baruch etc. who believe that although the heter makes no sense to them, this situation goes into the category of "omrim lecha al semol shehu yemin".  AKA, it cannot be that a serious wrong doing was committed. @Baruch reinforces the notion that it cant be wrong because RNG is "the gadol hador leinyoney gittin" (a new title created in this thread nonetheless!).

b) What I believe: This absolutely does not go into the category of omrim lecha al yemin shehu semol for these reasons. 1) all the gedolim have said that either the heter is 100% wrong or at the very least that the process was 100% wrong. I am confident that this matter does not go into any catagory of a "machlokes gedolim". No-one has defended the hetter side. 2) RNG himself has declared that his heter was only conditional on what he heard from R Sholom. (So there isn't much of a "gado hador" being really matir anyway.)


It is a mitzvah to continue to publicize how this hetter was incorrect because it has, and will continue to have massive, noticeable detrimental effects on the halachic process and mesorah. (which are already under siege from Open Orthodoxy and other various feminist activists who feel like the torah and halacha is "unfair".)

[dealfinder85]

I still dont get why this thread needs to continue
some use it as an outlet to lash out at talmidei chachamim from behind their anonymous user names (not only did they want to be anonymous, they didnt even have enough guts to use their typical anonymous user name. they had to hide from that one too)
some use it as a way to throw halachic terms around to make other ppl think that their anonymous user name knows lots of halacha
some use it as a way to make themselves out to be uber righteous and their sole mission is to ensure there are no mamzerim created (ill grant that as a valuable mission, but not here)
so i ask again, why is this thread still open for posting?

[SayWhat]

why are you hiding behind an alias?

I don't have a different dans deal name. I don't frequent this site and came across this thread by accident. I set up a username just like you. Why is that so hard to understand?

[churnbabychurn]

I still dont get why this thread needs to continue
some use it as an outlet to lash out at talmidei chachamim from behind their anonymous user names (not only did they want to be anonymous, they didnt even have enough guts to use their typical anonymous user name. they had to hide from that one too)
some use it as a way to throw halachic terms around to make other ppl think that their anonymous user name knows lots of halacha
some use it as a way to make themselves out to be uber righteous and their sole mission is to ensure there are no mamzerim created (ill grant that as a valuable mission, but not here)
so i ask again, why is this thread still open for posting?

Short answer is that since this is not your forum, you dont get to make up what can and cannot be discussed. Refer to the beginners guide for more info.

You can also just ignore this thread if you dont like what is discussed. Not sure why you keep coming back to tell people not to post.

Also there is this:

It is a mitzvah to continue to publicize how this hetter was incorrect because it has, and will continue to have massive, noticeable detrimental effects on the halachic process and mesorah. (which are already under siege from Open Orthodoxy and other various feminist activists who feel like the torah and halacha is "unfair".)

[yuneeq]

I still dont get why this thread needs to continue
some use it as an outlet to lash out at talmidei chachamim from behind their anonymous user names (not only did they want to be anonymous,
they didnt even have enough guts to use their typical anonymous user name. they had to hide from that one too)

Some people disagree and think it's the righteous thing to publicize the issue. You are allowed to disagree, but why the heck are your thoughts more valid than anyone else?

Like this guy:

It is a mitzvah to continue to publicize how this hetter was incorrect because it has, and will continue to have massive, noticeable detrimental effects on the halachic process and mesorah. (which are already under siege from Open Orthodoxy and other various feminist activists who feel like the torah and halacha is "unfair".)

some use it as a way to throw halachic terms around to make other ppl think that their anonymous user name knows lots of halacha

Who cares?
Why does that bother you?
And why should anyone care if it bothers you?

some use it as a way to make themselves out to be uber righteous and their sole mission is to ensure there are no mamzerim created (ill grant that as a valuable mission, but not here)
so i ask again, why is this thread still open for posting?

Since when does every post have to meet your personal standards?

[yuneeq]

I don't have a different dans deal name. I don't frequent this site and came across this thread by accident. I set up a username just like you. Why is that so hard to understand?

It's hard to attack the message so he attacks the messenger.
Very simple.

[cs50]

I've been reading post after post for a long time now. I think everyone can agree here (no matter what their hashkafic backround and beliefs in Judaism) that we have to adhere to what the rabonim of our times say and tell us whether it sits well with us or not and we don't act on what we (non rabbis) think should be right. (If you are reading this and don't agree than just stop here and don't continue). Anyone on this forum that thinks it's a mitzva do publicize this horrible story which has gone from bad to worse and to call out talmidie chachamim (even if they did make mistakes) I challenge you...take this whole thread and show it to a real rav and have him read through it. If you think for one second he will commend you for how you are writing and for the great holy work you are doing here then kol hakovad. But I highly doubt you will get any real rav to tell you that (even if he is one that is involved in this story and is against the heter) and if you think you will get your blessing from that rav to continue in your holy work on this thread then I think you are living in a dream world.

[SayWhat]

I still dont get why this thread needs to continue
some use it as an outlet to lash out at talmidei chachamim from behind their anonymous user names (not only did they want to be anonymous, they didnt even have enough guts to use their typical anonymous user name. they had to hide from that one too)
some use it as a way to throw halachic terms around to make other ppl think that their anonymous user name knows lots of halacha
some use it as a way to make themselves out to be uber righteous and their sole mission is to ensure there are no mamzerim created (ill grant that as a valuable mission, but not here)
so i ask again, why is this thread still open for posting?

When lies are spread around for years there needs to be a forum for the truth to come out on. Like I said the truth is just getting geared up there is no telling whose door step it will show up on. If it makes you feel better go stick your head in the sand.

[cs50]

Disclaimer- I am not sticking up for any heter here or taking sides in this story I am just talking about the tone that is being used when talking about rabbis in this threas

[dealfinder85]

When lies are spread around for years there needs to be a forum for the truth to come out on. Like I said the truth is just getting geared up there is no telling whose door step it will show up on. If it makes you feel better go stick your head in the sand.

if you are truly concerned with the lies being spread and you really want the truth to come out, go speak to your rav and discuss with him, what avenue can be used to announce this to the public. if he says it should be continued to be done in this manner, so be it