The Tamar Epstein Saga

[avromie7]

Going back on topic, the main issue is the corruption in the bais din system. AFAIK at least up until this story started the Baltimore bais din was from the only battai dinim with a good reputation (maybe the only one with a good reputation). To make matters worse we have the feminists who decide that halacha is not fair and we must do what we can to help the wife take all she possibly can from her husband, full custody, alimony, and as much child support as possible to leave the husband struggling whether or not it's in line with halacha, and when the husband wants to work things out, they direct her not to give in at all so they can't work things out and have a peaceful divorce. Then they go and blame the husband who is more than willing to give a get if he gets fair time with his kids and isn't left broke paying exorbitant alimony and child support.

This is my analysis based on a few years of research in jewish divorces. This is the core of the issue in most dirty divorces, not the husband being a jerk like the feminists and some here wish to believe

(Don't quote me as saying there are no jerks in the world)

[chevron]

I read some of the thread and likely missed out what im thinking but i'll express it any ways.

Halachik loopholes were discussed and Hillel was a reformer by introducing the pruzbal.. So people who quote Chasam Sofer's "Chadash asur min hatorah" are ignoring the basis of halachik growth in society... You can sit in Yeshiva arguing pointless pilpul pretending the world and society does not change.. The torah does not change but rabbinic enactment's are made to deal with issues that arise.

Agunot are not dealt with because there is no widespread occurrences of these chained women re-marrying non jews absent a get.. if it was happening commonly, you can bet your goody good shoes they'd come up with heterim faster than you can sell your chometz.

And that wont address agunot in the age of tinder etc who may just keep their agunot public status and have fun on the side

I also understand why many are stubborn on gittin issus, since at stake is a possible married woman remarying and having momzerim.

But, like I said, if agunot DID go remarry non jews or jews that didnt care about gitting and kidushin... the batey dinim would move their butt's reallyyyyyyyyyyyy fast

In old cairo, it seemed that women were not interested in the old system of a 12 month waiting period to divorce so they just married muslim men, in light of this, the rabbanim abolished the 12 month talmudic waiting period

[meshugener]

I read some of the thread and likely missed out what im thinking but i'll express it any ways.

Halachik loopholes were discussed and Hillel was a reformer by introducing the pruzbal.. So people who quote Chasam Sofer's "Chadash asur min hatorah" are ignoring the basis of halachik growth in society... You can sit in Yeshiva arguing pointless pilpul pretending the world and society does not change.. The torah does not change but rabbinic enactment's are made to deal with issues that arise.

Agunot are not dealt with because there is no widespread occurrences of these chained women re-marrying non jews absent a get.. if it was happening commonly, you can bet your goody good shoes they'd come up with heterim faster than you can sell your chometz.

And that wont address agunot in the age of tinder etc who may just keep their agunot public status and have fun on the side

I also understand why many are stubborn on gittin issus, since at stake is a possible married woman remarying and having momzerim.

But, like I said, if agunot DID go remarry non jews or jews that didnt care about gitting and kidushin... the batey dinim would move their butt's reallyyyyyyyyyyyy fast

In old cairo, it seemed that women were not interested in the old system of a 12 month waiting period to divorce so they just married muslim men, in light of this, the rabbanim abolished the 12 month talmudic waiting period

You have a very interesting perspective.

[henche]

i am easily outable, and i am now a modern orthodox jew, though i grew up yeshivish/learned in chareidi yeshivos/wore a black hat for most of my life. My basis in the quotes above is all rambam, but whenever i bring it up to frum adults, i am somewhat surprised that adults still haven't gotten to reading basics like the rambam's intros or Maharitz Chiyus's basics to Talmud (heavily based on the rambam, at least the translation by R JJ Shachter), or even the Oral Law by R Schimmel (with really important fns and points put in by R Simcha Wasserman).

I'd hardly consider rambam a "basic". In his own time, his sefarim were burned as heresy, and even though we clearly have retracted that as a community, I'm not aware that these ideas you cite were ever mainstream, although they were rediscovered recently by contrarians.

[henche]

Did you just equate reform and OO?

Is that considered controversial? I usually hear them equated with conserervaitve, but reform is really more apt.

[chevron]

Hillel enacted but did not invent the pruzbal, this was done because people abused the loan system come shmittah.. So people stopped giving loans and the economy sagged.

Maybe husbands abuse the get system, but if we could tie in the shiduch crisis with the agunah crisis.. they'd fix the agunah crisis

[yitzf]

I'd hardly consider rambam a "basic". In his own time, his sefarim were burned as heresy, and even though we clearly have retracted that as a community, I'm not aware that these ideas you cite were ever mainstream, although they were rediscovered recently by contrarians.

The same way in hilchos Shabbos we have a Bais Yosef, Shulchan Aruch/Rama, Shach, Taz etc etc all the way to the Mishna Brurua. You can just pick a shita of a rishon and pasken halacha.

Similarly in hashkafa we have a mesora as cbc mentioned, and what you learn in yeshiva is the distilled version of hashkafa similar to the Mishna Berura being a distilled version of all the poskim from the Gemorah and down.

(I'm agreeing with the essence of what you're saying)

[shiframeir]

I'd hardly consider rambam a "basic". In his own time, his sefarim were burned as heresy, and even though we clearly have retracted that as a community, I'm not aware that these ideas you cite were ever mainstream, although they were rediscovered recently by contrarians.

The same way in hilchos Shabbos we have a Bais Yosef, Shulchan Aruch/Rama, Shach, Taz etc etc all the way to the Mishna Brurua. You can just pick a shita of a rishon and pasken halacha.
Similarly in hashkafa we have a mesora as cbc mentioned, and what you learn in yeshiva is the distilled version of hashkafa similar to the Mishna Berura being a distilled version of all the poskim from the Gemorah and down.
(I'm agreeing with the essence of what you're saying)

ok, so please one of you (R Henche or R Yitzf) i would appreciate you providing me with a source citing/providing a structured and reasoned explanation of the alternative to the Rambam's understanding of mesorah, sinai and rabbinic law. most written sources continue to follow his system (see R elchonon in kovetz he'aros and alluded elsewhere, maharitz chiyus, and even down to today sources like R Shlomo Fisher and R Yitzchak Berkovits), and i believe your illusion to the mesorah of what a lot of the velt assumes (that everything is from sinai, machlokes is when we have an argument about what the right mesorah is b/c one of the sides either lied or made bg mistakes, and we are trying to figure out who was right by our analytical review) is not actually embraced by anyone in writing since certain early rishonim disagreeing with the Rambam. 
"rediscovered by contrarians" is close to an insult to most people who are trying to understand what the mesorah is and what it isnt, and why that matters. these people include the great men cited above and many others looking for truth and an approach to best serve Hashem. "Contrarians" presumably have much better ways to spend their time than breaking their heads on this.

[churnbabychurn]

[Super Speed]

Finally!

[churnbabychurn]

Disgusting!

Sadly he will drag down the whole Philadelphia brand with him. - I'm referring to talmidim, family, rabbeim etc.

What a mess.

[akivak]

Who makes these papers and send them around, can I make up papers to say whatever I want and put them out just like this?

[churnbabychurn]

Who makes these papers and send them around, can I make up papers to say whatever I want and put them out just like this?

Very true.

Reportedly they are putting together a massive demonstration in binyanay haumah. So there may be something to this one.

[henche]

ok, so please one of you (R Henche or R Yitzf) i would appreciate you providing me with a source citing/providing a structured and reasoned explanation of the alternative to the Rambam's understanding of mesorah, sinai and rabbinic law. most written sources continue to follow his system (see R elchonon in kovetz he'aros and alluded elsewhere, maharitz chiyus, and even down to today sources like R Shlomo Fisher and R Yitzchak Berkovits), and i believe your illusion to the mesorah of what a lot of the velt assumes (that everything is from sinai, machlokes is when we have an argument about what the right mesorah is b/c one of the sides either lied or made bg mistakes, and we are trying to figure out who was right by our analytical review) is not actually embraced by anyone in writing since certain early rishonim disagreeing with the Rambam. 
"rediscovered by contrarians" is close to an insult to most people who are trying to understand what the mesorah is and what it isnt, and why that matters. these people include the great men cited above and many others looking for truth and an approach to best serve Hashem. "Contrarians" presumably have much better ways to spend their time than breaking their heads on this.

Nope, I can't.  And I don't care, because it doesn't matter.  The halacha is what the shulchan aruch says, and that's enough for me without the philosophising about it. 

[ariIs]

I'd hardly consider rambam a "basic". In his own time, his sefarim were burned as heresy, and even though we clearly have retracted that as a community, I'm not aware that these ideas you cite were ever mainstream, although they were rediscovered recently by contrarians.

Wow.
So back to burning the rambam's seforim then?

[aygart]

Very true.

Reportedly they are putting together a massive demonstration in binyanay haumah. So there may be something to this one.

Who are "they"

[norma]

Who are "they"

Its obvious.  The very powerful people that have access to Hebrew fonts.

Unsigned macha's are worth less than the paper they are printed on.

[churnbabychurn]

Who are "they"

בני הישיבות

[Drago]

Very true.

Reportedly they are putting together a massive demonstration in binyanay haumah. So there may be something to this one.

If anyone is flying in for the protest, please pm me. May want something from duty free.
Thx!

[Boruch999]

Unsigned macha's are worth less than the paper they are printed on.

+1