The Tamar Epstein Saga

[churnbabychurn]

I would imagine he means while they are happily married

Um duh. Yes. Woman are happier in a secure marriage.
To be honest I'm not a woman and I'm not Sigmund Freud. So I honestly don't know or understand it all. But I'm sure that however gd designed it it is perfect.

[aygart]

Um duh. Yes. Woman are happier in a secure marriage.
To be honest I'm not a woman and I'm not Sigmund Freud. So I honestly don't know or understand it all. But I'm sure that however gd designed it it is perfect.

He didn't seem to understand that, but it isn't any more secure for her by her being locked and not him.

[meshugener]

Um duh. Yes. Woman are happier in a secure marriage.

And men are also happier in a secure marriage.

Why don't we (men) get that advantage?

What a feminist torah we have.

[shiframeir]

It is a serious issue. It is not comparable to your examples.
It's a very good kashya. Why did the Torah give a man the power to screw over a woman for life?
I've yet to hear a good answer.
And I just add it to the hundreds of kashyas that we don't have a good answer for.

There are those that because of this problem change the Torah. That's a big problem.
We're not smarter than Hashem.

It is not at all clear that the drasha of vekasav lah and rules related to it are divine or from "the Torah" and may have been layered on by the power granted to the chachamim to be doresh (still with power of chamirus of "de'oraisah", but considered Divrei sofrim, and subject to change by later Batei dinim, all per the Rambam's view on Sinai vs Rabbinic law, and the fact that any drasha on which there is machlokes cannot be from Sinai per se (see Gittin 26a as to the conflicting opinions on the extent of lishma requirements per two reads of R Elazar)).

All the torah says (and indeed a simple read could be,and perhaps the mesorah read of the simple text ) is that if u hate your wife, u have a mitzvah to write out a bill of divorce stating the separation details (u get back this, i give u this etc.), and send her away. So no blame on Hashem, or any right the "Torah" is giving to men, though i also think the rabbanan that enacted, accepted and enforced all these rules through drasha etc did it for a positive purpose (to keep marriages intact and protect poor divorcees who would have nowhere to turn in those days, similar to all the leniencies made with respect to the protection of (real) agunos who lost their husband in questionable circumstances and wanted to remarry).

I'm sure peeps here will say oh this sounds like reform/open orthodoxy, but this is all pretty well settled based on the Rambam's view of Torah Misinai, the two types of drashos (those that are done to placehold for something we also got at sinai vs innovative rabbinic drashos) and machlokes. Read the Rambam's intro to pirush hamishnayos, and also check out Hilchos mamrim in the yad.
 

[churnbabychurn]

And men are also happier in a secure marriage.

Why don't we (men) get that advantage?

What a feminist torah we have.

Men and women are different. We are not 'exactly the same with just different physical traits' as they would want you to believe.

So not everything that is perfect for the woman is perfect for the man.

[shiframeir]

Men and women are different. We are not 'exactly the same with just different physical traits' as they would want you to believe.

So not everything that is perfect for the woman is perfect for the man.

like freedom. or the right to be happy.

[shiframeir]

It's not M/O or O/O. It's freakin Karaite.   

so the rambam was a karaite? pls explain.

[Baruch]

so the rambam was a karaite? pls explain.

Did you notice the  ?

[meshugener]

Men and women are different. We are not 'exactly the same with just different physical traits' as they would want you to believe.

So not everything that is perfect for the woman is perfect for the man.

So it's perfect for the wife to be locked into a marriage while it's just not so perfect to lock in the wife?

[shiframeir]

Did you notice the  ?

sorry I get too defensive here

[churnbabychurn]

like freedom. or the right to be happy.

Like girls like pink and boys like blue. - Or is this also "chauvinistic and judgmental "?

The nature of a woman is to accept the kidushin while man is to give it. - Is this something you are allowed to relate to, or is it against the current social code?

[elit]

And men are also happier in a secure marriage.

Why don't we (men) get that advantage?

What a feminist torah we have.

Rotfl

It is not at all clear that the drasha of vekasav lah and rules related to it are divine or from "the Torah" and may have been layered on by the power granted to the chachamim to be doresh (still with power of chamirus of "de'oraisah", but considered Divrei sofrim, and subject to change by later Batei dinim, all per the Rambam's view on Sinai vs Rabbinic law, and the fact that any drasha on which there is machlokes cannot be from Sinai per se (see Gittin 26a as to the conflicting opinions on the extent of lishma requirements per two reads of R Elazar)).

All the torah says (and indeed a simple read could be,and perhaps the mesorah read of the simple text ) is that if u hate your wife, u have a mitzvah to write out a bill of divorce stating the separation details (u get back this, i give u this etc.), and send her away. So no blame on Hashem, or any right the "Torah" is giving to men, though i also think the rabbanan that enacted, accepted and enforced all these rules through drasha etc did it for a positive purpose (to keep marriages intact and protect poor divorcees who would have nowhere to turn in those days, similar to all the leniencies made with respect to the protection of (real) agunos who lost their husband in questionable circumstances and wanted to remarry).

I'm sure peeps here will say oh this sounds like reform/open orthodoxy, but this is all pretty well settled based on the Rambam's view of Torah Misinai, the two types of drashos (those that are done to placehold for something we also got at sinai vs innovative rabbinic drashos) and machlokes. Read the Rambam's intro to pirush hamishnayos, and also check out Hilchos mamrim in the yad.

Oh boy the bc thread is not enough popcorn

[henche]

I'm sure peeps here will say oh this sounds like reform/open orthodoxy, but this is all pretty well settled based on the Rambam's view of Torah Misinai, the two types of drashos (those that are done to placehold for something we also got at sinai vs innovative rabbinic drashos) and machlokes. Read the Rambam's intro to pirush hamishnayos, and also check out Hilchos mamrim in the yad.

You know, when you post one idea and say "it sounds reform but don't worry its not"-ok. But when everything you post "sounds reform but don't worry its not" maybe just tell us you're reform.

[Boruch999]

I'm sure peeps here will say oh this sounds like reform/open orthodoxy, but this is all pretty well settled based on the Rambam's view of Torah Misinai, the two types of drashos (those that are done to placehold for something we also got at sinai vs innovative rabbinic drashos) and machlokes. Read the Rambam's intro to pirush hamishnayos, and also check out Hilchos mamrim in the yad.

Did you just equate reform and OO?

[churnbabychurn]

You know, when you post one idea and say "it sounds reform but don't worry its not"-ok. But when everything you post "sounds reform but don't worry its not" maybe just tell us you're reform.

....
 
 if u can't even answer an obvious apikorus like me (1/2 joke), not sure you are entitled to throw your opinions around ....

[shiframeir]

i am easily outable, and i am now a modern orthodox jew, though i grew up yeshivish/learned in chareidi yeshivos/wore a black hat for most of my life. My basis in the quotes above is all rambam, but whenever i bring it up to frum adults, i am somewhat surprised that adults still haven't gotten to reading basics like the rambam's intros or Maharitz Chiyus's basics to Talmud (heavily based on the rambam, at least the translation by R JJ Shachter), or even the Oral Law by R Schimmel (with really important fns and points put in by R Simcha Wasserman). I guess when i left yeshivah i was at a loss for a lot of this basic information, I learned masechtos but didnt know the underpinning and what was actually happening when a drasha was used etc., and was VERY surprised to learn all this stuff after I had already spent so much time learning perhaps in an offset light (not a waste Ch'v, but probably would have been better quality). I joke about reform apikorus etc because when i was frum and people said these things to me i was sure they were apikorsim, so i try to preempt that suggesting they learn it themselves.
I dont mean to equate reform and OO, though the chareidi world seems to. I think there is a lot of variance among the OO (I actually almost got into physical fights with an OO back when i was frum, and always hated R Avi Weiss for so many reasons), and while some who went to their schools may now no longer believe in certain basics, that should not tar the whole group as reform. i equated tongue in cheek (thx to wiki i just found out where that euphamism comes from).

[churnbabychurn]

Il just tell you that if you learned in a traditional yeshiva, what they taught is the truth.
Don't rely on any of the big discoveries that you subsequently made. The tradition is the truth. You don't have to look further.

And BTW" Dr.Bruria Hutner David describes Chajes as "Traditionalist and Maskil" - as the subject of her PhD thesis."

[shiframeir]

Il just tell you that if you learned in a traditional yeshiva, what they taught is the truth.
Don't rely on any of the big discoveries that you subsequently made. The tradition is the truth. You don't have to look further.

And BTW" Dr.Bruria Hutner David describes Chajes as "Traditionalist and Maskil" - as the subject of her PhD thesis."

I read that thesis, really a great read, though i believe at the time of his writing of that sefer he was clearly pushing a more classic agenda. The Tradition is definitely the truth (as noted by the Rambam), but in most yeshivos unfortunately they dont dwell on the background and the tradition (perhaps assuming u learn it alongside), and just let you sit with a shtender and break your head without understanding the basics. I strongly suggest that everyone learn the RAMBAMs intro, even if you may decide for yourself that you disagree and every piece of gemarah was given at sinai (as noted in the medresh). His opinion, which is hard to digest, is that there can NEVER be a machlokes on anything that came from sinai, since the chain was unbroken (and presumably still is), and to think there is is disgusting. He therefore says only the absolute basic pshat read on every mitzvah was communicated, along with lots of other rules (halachos lmoshe misinai), but anything that is (truly) argued (vs certain instances where we do say menah hani mili, but really to confirm source, so hava aminah and maskanah were not truly in conflict) was PER SE not from Sinai).

[aygart]

Il just tell you that if you learned in a traditional yeshiva, what they taught is the truth.
Don't rely on any of the big discoveries that you subsequently made. The tradition is the truth. You don't have to look further.

The Tradition is definitely the truth (as noted by the Rambam), but in most yeshivos they dont dwell on this aspect of the background and the tradition (perhaps assuming u learn it alongside)

This is definitely true. Also, just because someone is very good at giving a shiur on Shnayim Ochazin doesn't always mean that they are familiar with this. Many bochurim are very lacking in this area.

My father was once on a B"D for a geirus misafek of a family where some question came up about a great grandmother. The children were all in mainstream yeshivos/BYs, but when as a part of the process there was discussion of some ikrei hadas the boys (more so than the girls) were very lacking.

[churnbabychurn]

This is definitely true. Also, just because someone is very good at giving a shiur on Shnayim Ochazin doesn't always mean that they are familiar with this. Many bochurim are very lacking in this area.

My father was once on a B"D for a geirus misafek of a family where some question came up about a great grandmother. The children were all in mainstream yeshivos/BYs, but when as a part of the process there was discussion of some ikrei hadas the boys (more so than the girls) were very lacking.

Which brings us back to here.

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