MA'ASER ON POINTS???

[Dan]

That is exactly what we are discussing here... Do points fall into the category of kesafim, and if they do how is one mafrish ma'aser

Miles are not cash.  They can't legally be sold for cash, hence they aren't cash. Plain and simple.
They can't be reinvested for profit or earn interest like you can with cash. You can be penalized if you are cuaght trying to convert them to cash.  They are simply meant to be used and enjoyed.

Now if you do cash out your miles then there's a much bigger question IMHO. 

[aycee]

Miles are not cash.  They can't legally be sold for cash, hence they aren't cash. Plain and simple.
They can't be reinvested for profit or earn interest like you can with cash. You can be penalized if you are cuaght trying to convert them to cash.  They are simply meant to be used and enjoyed.

Exactly my point! We are discussing that here.
Now that is your view. Others may disagree. As it seems some Rabbonim did when they were asked.
Agav, does the fact that they can't legally be sold for cash make a difference? Does the fact that they cant be reinvested for profit make a difference? Does the fact they cannot earn interest make a difference? Does the fact that one can be penalized for selling them make a difference?
*when i say "make a difference" i mean halachically...

[tripper]

I'm assuming Chaikel is speaking about Reb Yaakov Bloi Shlit"a a noted Mot"z in the Eidah Hachareidis who was a bank manager prior to becoming a posek. After he realized all the ribbis and Maaser shailos popping up he decided to learn what the Torah says about it. He has since written at least ten volumes on Ch"m issues as well as on all of Shas. He is well accepted in all circles. When I am in Eretz Yisroel next I will try to speak to him.

[Dan]

Exactly my point! We are discussing that here.
Now that is your view. Others may disagree. As it seems some Rabbonim did when they were asked.
Agav, does the fact that they can't legally be sold for cash make a difference? Does the fact that they cant be reinvested for profit make a difference? Does the fact they cannot earn interest make a difference? Does the fact that one can be penalized for selling them make a difference?
*when i say "make a difference" i mean halachically...

I'm giving my opinion as someone in the field.  When a Rov has a medical question they go to a Dr. for his opinion...Quite frankly I don't know of too many Rabbis that would be qualified to know enough about miles to answer that question off the bat.

I do not think it's fair by any stretch of the imagination that miles are a cash equivalent.  How many other items do you own in your possession that have such restrictions and negative ramifications (lifetime bans, confiscation of miles, cancellation of tickets, etc) if you sell them?

Exactly.  None.

[aycee]

I'm assuming Chaikel is speaking about Reb Yaakov Bloi Shlit"a a noted Mot"z in the Eidah Hachareidis who was a bank manager prior to becoming a posek. After he realized all the ribbis and Maaser shailos popping up he decided to learn what the Torah says about it. He has since written at least ten volumes on Ch"m issues as well as on all of Shas. He is well accepted in all circles. When I am in Eretz Yisroel next I will try to speak to him.

Thats very funny. When I PMd him to ask who it was I guessed Reb Yankel Blau who is indeed known as the biggest mumcheh in choshen mishpat.... Alas, he said that it wasn't

[aycee]

I'm giving my opinion as someone in the field.  When a Rov has a medical question they go to a Dr. for his opinion...Quite frankly I don't know of too many Rabbis that would be qualified to know enough about miles to answer that question off the bat.

I do not think it's fair by any stretch of the imagination that miles are a cash equivalent.  How many other items do you own in your possession that have such restrictions and negative ramifications (lifetime bans, confiscation of miles, cancellation of tickets, etc) if you sell them?

Exactly.  None.

Yes, you are an expert in the field; maybe even THE expert in the field. But when a Rov goes to a Doctor for info the doctor doesn't pasken because although he knows the medical facts he does't know the halacha! So the Rabbi gets the fact and compiles that info with the pertinent halachic info and then paskens.
My point is that although you are the expert in the field of  points you do not have the halachic knowledge...
Which is why I asked what I did before.... Just because they cant be sold legally or reinvested or grow with interest, why would that preclude them from ma;aser???

[arie]

However, since this Minhag was never practiced with regards to miles and membership points, then what is the basis of including miles and membership points in the Minhag?

I don't see why miles and points should be any different, they did not have laptops in those days too, so are they out of the question? It matters not what the item is, rather what category they fall under. If they are to be considered as a physical gift - not cash, than only if you hold Ma'aser is necessary on non-cash item will miles be be subject too

[dirah]

Wow.... Again, you are only brining down one shita! You should really put a massive disclaimer that your posts are missing much info and you are only presenting one side.
See: Elya Rabba (156), Shel"ah (272) who whold that one must give ma'aser on a yerusah.
See Kuntres Am Hatorah (madura 2 choveres 5) where Reb Moshe Shternbuch Shlit"a writes that a person is mechuyav to give ma'aser on yerusha when he uses it for business or for other expenses.

It seems that what I wrote went completely over your head.

The Shevet Halevi speaks of inheritance of property because those who receive such a present do not have the means to separate such a great sum, as is many times the case with miles.

All the sources you have cited above do not contradict this in the slightest; they are referring to a cash inheritance, in which case the the son clearly has the means to give Maser - all he has to do is use 10% of the cash that he inherited.

[dirah]

I don't see why miles and points should be any different, they did not have laptops in those days too, so are they out of the question? It matters not what the item is, rather what category they fall under. If they are to be considered as a physical gift - not cash, than only if you hold Ma'aser is necessary on non-cash item will miles be be subject too

Yes they didn't have laptops, but as you yourself write, it is clear which category they belong to.
The point is that it is not clear which category miles and membership points belong to, which raises the possibility (and I emphasize that word) that they are in a category of their own; not quite cash, not quite Mitaltlin. If that is the case, now that you finally admit that most Poskim hold that Maaser Kesofim is a Minhag, then why should the Minhag apply to miles? It think it is fair to say that from the time that frequent flyer miles were "invented" (according to Wikipedia, in 1979), most Frumme Yidden have not been separating Maaser from them, meaning that there is no such Minhag!

I also want to emphasize (in case it was not obvious from my first post) that my goal is not to "pasken" that Maaser does need not to be separated from miles (as if my opinion would matter...). I am just bringing up the issues that I have with this.

[Dan]

Yes, you are an expert in the field; maybe even THE expert in the field. But when a Rov goes to a Doctor for info the doctor doesn't pasken because although he knows the medical facts he does't know the halacha! So the Rabbi gets the fact and compiles that info with the pertinent halachic info and then paskens.
My point is that although you are the expert in the field of  points you do not have the halachic knowledge...
Which is why I asked what I did before.... Just because they cant be sold legally or reinvested or grow with interest, why would that preclude them from ma;aser???

To be perfectly clear in case it wasn't.  I am not paskening anything on this subject.  I am giving my opinions on the matter and I fully admit to not asking the shailoh to a LOR (except myself ) as of yet. 

I'm just saying that it's a stretch to assume that a mileage layman knows the intricacies and terms of the miles and how they work and are considered by the airlines.

Did you know that airlines and hotels consider miles to always be their property and can be revoked at any time with short notice?
Are we really going to start making people pay maiser on something that they don't even own!

There are many facts that come into play here that can't be asked and answered without much research into understanding what is a mile.

[Dan]

To back up some of my points that miles are not cash and in fact aren't even considered to be youw own property.

Every airline has similar terms as these:
http://www.aa.com/i18n/utility/mileageExpiration.jsp

"Accrued mileage credit and award tickets do not constitute property of the member."
"At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold or bartered. Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys fees incurred in enforcing this rule."
"American Airlines reserves the right to end the AAdvantage program with six months notice."

[shach]

I'm assuming Chaikel is speaking about Reb Yaakov Bloi Shlit"a a noted Mot"z in the Eidah Hachareidis who was a bank manager prior to becoming a posek. After he realized all the ribbis and Maaser shailos popping up he decided to learn what the Torah says about it. He has since written at least ten volumes on Ch"m issues as well as on all of Shas. He is well accepted in all circles. When I am in Eretz Yisroel next I will try to speak to him.

not him, could s/o in israel please go and ask him?

[springles]

This is a very interesting discussion.  I would love to have Dan be able to sit with the unnamed Rav that Chaikel talked to so that both sides can fully understand the other's rules and reasons

[APoshiterYid]

"market value", "msrp" and What it could sell is can be 100s apart. Point was, can you donate an object and deduct the value for maaser? if yes how much, the price you bought it for, the value now (how do you estimate that)or how much you can sell it for?

So maybe you misread my post, but I never said anything about MSRP. We all know MSRP is a sham, and it would be equally dishonest to cheshbon maaser based on it. I said FMV, Fair Market Value; if there are 30 websites selling the printer at cheapest for $250, then it is halachically "worth" $250. I'm not sure why people keep bringing up what it is worth to them... If I'm not machshiv money then I wouldn't have to give maaser at all? What a great heter!

And lgabbai miles, if anyone is selling these miles, regardless of where they came from, I'm not sure how one would think that this would not be considered income; as Dan said according to the IRS the second you sell miles they are taxable. The one thing I don't agree with Dan on is what he said about his $250k trip. I think this would obviously be an exception to the FMV rule, but I dont think it's too crazy to cheshbon what you feel you would have paid for it and to atleast maaser that. To call that a "ridiculous" calculation seems a little silly, Im sure Dan could figure that one out.

Oh, and also, as far as calling miles a "cash rebate"; feeling this in your heart has very little bearing on hilchos maasros. Even if you do cheshbon it in when you make purchases, I'm not exactly sure why that would matter one iota. Does anyone have any halachic basis for this svara?...

[Dan]

When I buy with a credit card something I automatically calculate that there's a 2.5% discount in my mind that I'll get back because of the miles/points.
Or I can use the Schwab card to get a 2% discount.

To say that this purchase rebate is income shows ignorance IMHO.  Show me the person that doesn't want to use plastic to pay for item in order to get a rebate back on the purchase. But if that's how you make your income then you have other problems.

[APoshiterYid]

When I buy with a credit card something I automatically calculate that there's a 2.5% discount in my mind that I'll get back because of the miles/points.
Or I can use the Schwab card to get a 2% discount.

To say that this purchase rebate is income shows ignorance IMHO.  Show me the person that doesn't want to use plastic to pay for item in order to get a rebate back on the purchase. But if that's how you make your income then you have other problems.

Right, so again, I think we are agreeing on the "once you sell your miles part". But I just dont get what you automatically calculating %'s off has anything to do with anything necessarily.
If someone was yoresh a house, can you hear why they would have to maaser their savings on rent/equivalent?

[springles]

If someone was yoresh a house, can you hear why they would have to maaser their savings on rent/equivalent?

Not really.  Wasnt it already mentioned that if you inherit a house you wouldnt have to give maaser on it? I would think that means no maaser, not that you only give maaser on the $ you saved on your rent.

[dirah]

If someone was yoresh a house, can you hear why they would have to maaser their savings on rent/equivalent?

Actually, that Teshuvah I quoted from Shevet Halevi implies that you don't have to take maaser from the savings of rent that you otherwise would have had to pay. And according to those Poskim who hold that you don't have to give Maaser on a present, many hold (and this seems standard practice) that you dont have to give Maaser on the savings that you otherwise would have had to pay if you purchased it.

[That is besides the fact that what you say is not addressing what Dan is saying regarding a rebate.
Plain non-communication.]

[APoshiterYid]

[That is besides the fact that what you say is not addressing what Dan is saying regarding a rebate.
Plain non-communication.]

I apologize if the hemshech wasn't clear enough, I was equating savings of 2.5% CB from a CC to savings of rent from a yoresh'd house. On what halachic basis is CB/Pts considered a rebate? (And don't tell me because that's how you feel inside.)

Actually, that Teshuvah I quoted from Shevet Halevi implies that you don't have to take maaser from the savings of rent that you otherwise would have had to pay.

You yourself wrote that "The Shevet Halevi speaks of inheritance of property because those who receive such a present do not have the means to separate such a great sum, as is many times the case with miles." I of course hear that one is not expected to pay out $50k in maaser upon being yoresh a house, but I am not sure how you are extending this to a monthly savings of rent.

Anyway, I think it's silly for most of us to try to be paskening anything here at all, the only thing that should be discussed are potential svaras/positions on the metziyus on miles. As someone stated previously, knowing everything on miles doesnt necessarily translate to knowing anything about maasering miles. Shall we start another thread on shchita perhaps?

[aycee]

You yourself wrote that "The Shevet Halevi speaks of inheritance of property because those who receive such a present do not have the means to separate such a great sum, as is many times the case with miles." I of course hear that one is not expected to pay out $50k in maaser upon being yoresh a house, but I am not sure how you are extending this to a monthly savings of rent.

Shevet Halevi is one shita on yerusha, there are many others including Shla”a, Pischei Tshuva, Elya Rabba, Reb Moshe Shternbuch…...
Same applies to "I of course hear that one is not expected to pay out $50k in maaser upon being yoresh a house".... See above regarding matana. Not being able to give ma'aser does not make you patur, you can separate in the future as per Reb Shlomo Zalman and Dayan Fisher