Pesach Program Discussion Master Thread

[mlomni]

Let's get back on topic regarding pesach programs. I've been to one program over 10 years ago working as a mashgiach. It is complicated. The pesach program did not rent out the entire hotel. I'll never forget opening the kitchen with fresh rolls and cookies parked right outside the kitchen that was kashered for pesach. or how about the time i caught a platter of bagels entering the kosher kitchen on one of the programs food carts... I can go on with the amount of kashrus problems any program can have even in a case that the entire hotel was rented out. I can say that was the first and last time the Rabbi i worked for agreed to take on a program that did not rent out the entire hotel for pesach.

[damaxer91]

The leaders of Volozhin closed down their yeshiva rather than teach secular studies.

That's a famous myth perpetuated by Artscroll etc.

Read a bit about the history of Volozhin post-R' Chaim and you will learn that Secular Studies was just one a several major issues that existed there and NOT the reason that the Yeshiva was closed down. Our issues in today's Yeshivas pale in comparison.

But thats for a whole new 200 page thread....

[damaxer91]

can say that was the first and last time the Rabbi i worked for agreed to take on a program that did not rent out the entire hotel for pesach.

100%. A non-starter for any serious Rav Hamachshir.

[eyj]

One thing I’m curious about is how they do it motzai pesach? Having fresh hot chametz for the guests in a reasonable amount of time after the zman sounds pretty daunting. Forget about hachana issues, assuming all the chametz was sold, frozen, and ready to go for motzai pesach, the non-jews can’t handle the chametz before the Zman on behalf of the Jews since the chametz was sold and is not theirs.

Presumably the program has a kitchen full of pesach keilim, serving trays, etc that are being washed and stored for next year. Where do they heat up that kind of volume of chametz in short order? In the pesach kitchen? Does the program bring along auxiliary heating equipment that can be operated in a different location? If anyone who worked in the kitchen of such a program can fill me in I’d appreciate it.

[elit]

One thing I’m curious about is how they do it motzai pesach? Having fresh hot chametz for the guests in a reasonable amount of time after the zman sounds pretty daunting. Forget about hachana issues, assuming all the chametz was sold, frozen, and ready to go for motzai pesach, the non-jews can’t handle the chametz before the Zman on behalf of the Jews since the chametz was sold and is not theirs.

Presumably the program has a kitchen full of pesach keilim, serving trays, etc that are being washed and stored for next year. Where do they heat up that kind of volume of chametz in short order? In the pesach kitchen? Does the program bring along auxiliary heating equipment that can be operated in a different location? If anyone who worked in the kitchen of such a program can fill me in I’d appreciate it.

place I have been someone goes out and picks up bagels and stuff all keilim are packed away already nothing sophisticated that requires real kitchen prep is served

[moko]

One thing I’m curious about is how they do it motzai pesach? Having fresh hot chametz for the guests in a reasonable amount of time after the zman sounds pretty daunting. Forget about hachana issues, assuming all the chametz was sold, frozen, and ready to go for motzai pesach, the non-jews can’t handle the chametz before the Zman on behalf of the Jews since the chametz was sold and is not theirs.

Presumably the program has a kitchen full of pesach keilim, serving trays, etc that are being washed and stored for next year. Where do they heat up that kind of volume of chametz in short order? In the pesach kitchen? Does the program bring along auxiliary heating equipment that can be operated in a different location? If anyone who worked in the kitchen of such a program can fill me in I’d appreciate it.

Usually they kasher a treif hotel kitchen for pesach so after pesach there's no issue making it chometz

100%. A non-starter for any serious Rav Hamachshir.

+1000000

[Definitions]

One thing I’m curious about is how they do it motzai pesach? Having fresh hot chametz for the guests in a reasonable amount of time after the zman sounds pretty daunting. Forget about hachana issues, assuming all the chametz was sold, frozen, and ready to go for motzai pesach, the non-jews can’t handle the chametz before the Zman on behalf of the Jews since the chametz was sold and is not theirs.

If the only problem is that it doesn't  belong to the workers, maybe they can sell the chometz to the workers.

[eyj]

Usually they kasher a treif hotel kitchen for pesach so after pesach there's no issue making it chometz +1000000

What I was asking was not about the actual kitchen but about the fact that the chametz would be prepared while the kitchen is full of all the pesach equipment and utensils being washed, sorted, stored, for next years program etc.

Or do they kasher every utensil and piece of equipment from scratch each pesach leaving nothing to be cleaned and packed away for next year?

[Definitions]

What I was asking was not about the actual kitchen but about the fact that the chametz would be prepared while the kitchen is full of all the pesach equipment and utensils being washed, sorted, stored, for next years program etc.

Or do they kasher every utensil and piece of equipment from scratch each pesach leaving nothing to be cleaned and packed away for next year?

Sounds like the latter option from his response.

[mlomni]

Either they re-kasher every year or they buy brand new.

[eyj]

If the only problem is that it doesn't  belong to the workers, maybe they can sell the chometz to the workers.

I doubt any serious Rov would allow that kind of mechirah. If you could do that, the pizza shops could have fresh hot pizza ready even before the zman by selling to the workers...

[yuneeq]

Hey, finally back on topic!

Berenstain Bears

[aygart]

Berenstain Bears

I think this thread is becoming

[Sport]

or they buy brand new.

def not, you have any idea what that would cost!?

[churnbabychurn]

That's a famous myth perpetuated by Artscroll etc.

Read a bit about the history of Volozhin post-R' Chaim and you will learn that Secular Studies was just one a several major issues that existed there and NOT the reason that the Yeshiva was closed down. Our issues in today's Yeshivas pale in comparison.

But thats for a whole new 200 page thread....

Don't be silly. The yeshiva closed because the government imposed secular studies. This is a fact. (Not even disputed by anyone really)

There may have been other issues going on at the time, but nothing that would close the yeshiva.

[Moshe123]

Don't be silly. The yeshiva closed because the government imposed secular studies. This is a fact. (Not even disputed by anyone really)

There may have been other issues going on at the time, but nothing that would close the yeshiva.

No need to be revisionist.

[eyj]

No need to be revisionist.

http://cdn.yutorah.org/_shiurim/TU2_Schachter.pdf

It is a fact that the Chofetz Chaim described the closure of Volozhin as due to the refusal to introduce any secular studies. It is also a fact that until shortly before its closing Volozhin did not allow any formal secular studies, and when forced to do so a few years before the closure, it was pretty much a token program to appease the government. Contrast that with our school system today and it is clear that there is one answer for Volozhin and a different one for today’s yeshivos.

[Yammer]

i want to see you walk up to him at of the blue, and (at least 25 years his junior) berate him for not looking into the hashgocha... its  easy to bash from behind a computer....
having been to multiple programs, I can say that hachana is a huge issue all programs struggle with. try to get food for 1000+ people ready in an hour. good luck

I never said to bash
I genuinely would want to understand his thinking

+.

Just like many here have questioned the Kashrus prior to going to a Program.

It may be that he did research beforehand and that issues arose during Yom Tov ( part of the Kashrus team couldn't make it etc. )

Nothing wrong with asking

[ExGingi]

+.

It may be that he did research beforehand and that issues arose during Yom Tov ( part of the Kashrus team couldn't make it etc. )

Nothing wrong with asking

Kashrus, especially the practical issues, and even more so in a commercial food service setting, is definitely not the expertise of most Rabbonim, and even someone who you might look up to in other issues and would be a ירא שמים, might be simply unaware. This is to the extent that he would even consider having a Pesach Program in a place which was not fully taken over. As stated above:

100%. A non-starter for any serious Rav Hamachshir.

Yet, someone obviously did it, and learned from experience that he shouldn't do it again. That this specific Rav didn't have the insight to foresee such an issue ,might serve as an indication that he shouldn't be in this field at all!

So if these things are an issue for Rabbonim who are active in the field, why would you assume that a תלמיד חכם who might give excellent and inspiring shiurim, might even be aware of potential Kashrus problems?

[damaxer91]

Don't be silly. The yeshiva closed because the government imposed secular studies. This is a fact. (Not even disputed by anyone really)

There may have been other issues going on at the time, but nothing that would close the yeshiva.

https://www.amazon.com/Lithuanian-Yeshivas-Nineteenth-Century-Civilization/dp/187477479X

Start by reading this book and then a few others. Sure, it was an issue. But it wasn’t THE issue that closed the Yeshiva down. It was the in-fighting amongst different factions in the Yeshiva which led to mesira and ultimately the Yeshiva having to close down.