Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)

[imayid2]

Rabbi Avigdor Miller regarding above discussion:

https://jmp.sh/s/VcF6E1zT4SoCszFGAcCJ

Interesting, but I am going to trust the many cited sources in their judgment of יסודי הדת.

[sam2015]

Interesting, but I am going to trust the many cited sources in their judgment of יסודי הדת.

Something which many people fail to understand is that there’s a mesorah when it comes to these topics. It’s very nice that someone can find let’s say a Ralbag in Nach which says xyz, but the litvish yeshivos had a certain mesorah and that’s what should be followed. My mesorah is from the Chofetz Chaim. If you can find seforim that say otherwise, very nice. But it doesn’t mean anything. The litvish yeshivos followed the Chovos Halevovos. To start bringing sources that may say differently is very nice but should not matter. There’s mesorah in Hashkafa just like in Halacha.

[imayid2]

Something which many people fail to understand is that there’s a mesorah when it comes to these topics. It’s very nice that someone can find let’s say a Ralbag in Nach which says xyz, but the litvish yeshivos had a certain mesorah and that’s what should be followed. My mesorah is from the Chofetz Chaim. If you can find seforim that say otherwise, very nice. But it doesn’t mean anything. The litvish yeshivos followed the Chovos Halevovos. To start bringing sources that may say differently is very nice but should not matter. There’s mesorah in Hashkafa just like in Halacha.

Hmm. Where is the mesorah on this topic to be found?

"The litvish yeshivos followed the Chovos Halevovos"
As pointed out above it's not clear what his position on the matter is.

I have no idea on what grounds you make these assertions.

[Definitions2]

My mind is quite dense at the moment. Nothing is penetrating. I'll have to look at this later.

Interesting, but I am going to trust the many cited sources in their judgment of יסודי הדת.

Are you saying that you don't think the chovos halevovos is correct (I don't mean this in a condescending or accusing way) and think the opinion that people can affect other people is correct?

[sam2015]

Hmm. Where is the mesorah on this topic to be found?

שאל אביך ויגדך, זקניך ויאמרו לך, for hundreds of years a certain mehalech was taught in the Yeshivos. Do you actually think if a talmid were to show the Chofetz Chaim for example a Ralbag that says otherwise he would actually change his shittah? When dealing with hashkafa it’s exceedingly important to have a Rebbe who has a mesorah from the previous generations and not follow someone who decides to write an ‘essay’ on the topic and now is the expert and you can pick and choose what you like.

[imayid2]

Are you saying that you don't think the chovos halevovos is correct (I don't mean this in a condescending or accusing way) and think the opinion that people can affect other people is correct?

As I've been saying, the Chovos Halevovos needs work. But to your question, no, just saying that Reb Avigdor Miller telling me that the אור החיים  and the נצי"ב have the יסודי הדת wrong doesn't mean much to me.

[imayid2]

שאל אביך ויגדך, זקניך ויאמרו לך, for hundreds of years a certain mehalech was taught in the Yeshivos.

Who's yeshiva, yours? It's been around for hundreds of years?

Do you actually think if a talmid were to show the Chofetz Chaim for example a Ralbag that says otherwise he would actually change his shittah?

Totally confused now where the Chofetz Chaim and the Ralbag come into this conversation.

when dealing with hashkafa it’s exceedingly important to have a Rebbe who has a mesorah from the previous generations and not follow someone who decides to write an ‘essay’ on the topic and now is the expert and you can pick and choose what you like.

Is this a joke? You are refering to Rav Yaakov Hillel Shlita as "someone who decided to write an essay"?

[sam2015]

But to your question, no, just saying that Reb Avigdor Miller telling me that the אור החיים  and the נצי"ב have the יסודי הדת wrong doesn't mean much to me.

It just means you may not fully understand the cited sources. What R’ Miller says is not coming from himself. It’s what was taught by his Rebbiem in Europe and what was taught by their Rebbeim, as he said over many times. That was the mesorah in those Yeshivos.

[imayid2]

It just means you may not fully understand the cited sources.

I guess i'm in good company with Rav Yaakov Hillel...

What R’ Miller says is not coming from himself. It’s what was taught by his Rebbiem in Europe and what was taught by their Rebbeim, as he said over many times. That was the mesorah.

Your are going to have to link where he said that because it's not in that recording. You are making the case that there is some sort of oral tradition over hundreds of years that a בעל בחירה cannot kill someone who wasn't decreed to die? That is ridiculous.

[mevinyavin]

I haven't looked up any of the sources brought above, so excuse me if something is being repeated here.
For the record, when RYBs talks about this subject, he says that it is a rarity that people get "sacrificed on the altar of bechira" - that is, so that bechira continues to exist for everybody, yesh neesaf blo mishpat - and they get rewarded for it. He then emphasized again that this is a rarity. I can try to dig up a recording for it but I doubt I will find it (timewise).
In addition to that, there are the people who put themselves in sakana. The middas hadin is mekatreg and someone who had deserved to die but had some application of rachmanus holding it at bay will die. Had he stayed out of the makom sakana the rachmanus would have stayed the verdict.
I once heard from Rav Brudny (in person) that there is also the middle guy, who does NOT deserve to die at all but is in a makom sakana. In that case, Hashem gives him the opportunity to earn the hatzala, but if he fails the test he will die too. (He said the same is true for anyone affected by him peripherally. For example, you have the guy who does deserve to die but his wife doesn't deserve to be an almana. If she has extra zechusim it keeps him alive for her. If she doesn't but still doesn't deserve to be an almana, she gets the opportunity to earn the zechusim. If she fails, he dies. (I wasn't sure if he meant this is because the failure of the nisayon makes her now deserve it or if it's just that she doesn't have the zechusim.) He referenced the Ohr Hachaim on Devarim 1:39 for an example of this phenomenon - Moshe didn't deserve to not go into EY but failed the nisayon that would have enabled him to do so, ayen shom.
Sorry I don't have any mekoros for you to look up. Just putting this out there for anyone interested.

[imayid2]

R' 'Akiva Tatz "Does My Free Will Affect You?"

Fantastic presentation and compelling proof that בחירה can greatly effect other’s destinies.

[yungermanchik]

See Sinas Chinam, and Living with Peace of Mind among others.

[sam2015]

Is this a joke? You are refering to Rav Yaakov Hillel Shlita as "someone who decided to write an essay"?

Chas V’Shalom, I was not referring to R’ Yaakov Hillel, I actually had someone else in mind. I was confused how you brought R’ Hillel into this, so I looked upthread to see where you quoted him. I appreciate that link, it actually cleared up a certain point that was bothering me. But anyways, I think it would be wise for most of us to follow his advice at the end where he writes:

‏ובוודאי שמן הראוי ‏לקטני הדעת ‏למשוך ידיהם ‏מלעסוק בעניינים עמוקים אלה שאין להם ידיעה בזה, ורק מגמגמים ומעקמים דברי הראשונים, ומטילים פגם ודופי בקדשי קדשים 

[imayid2]

Chas V’Shalom, I was not referring to R’ Yaakov Hillel, I actually had someone else in mind. I was confused how you brought R’ Hillel into this, so I looked upthread to see where you quoted him. I appreciate that link, it actually cleared up a certain point that was bothering me. But anyways, I think it would be wise for most of us to follow his advice at the end where he writes:

I’m happy that what was bothering you is cleared up

I’d recommend you listen to Rabbi Tatz as well.

But anyways, I think it would be wise for most of us to follow his advice at the end where he writes:

‏ובוודאי שמן הראוי ‏לקטני הדעת ‏למשוך ידיהם ‏מלעסוק בעניינים עמוקים אלה שאין להם ידיעה בזה, ורק מגמגמים ומעקמים דברי הראשונים, ומטילים פגם ודופי בקדשי קדשים 

Speak for yourself

[sam2015]

I’d recommend you listen to Rabbi Tatz as well.

I did a long time ago when I was involved in this inyan and was very unhappy with it.

[imayid2]

I did a long time ago when I was involved in this inyan and was very unhappy with it.

Why?

[sam2015]

Why?

Not for discussion here. He’s a brilliant Talmid Chochom, but I was not able to get yishuv hadaas in the inyan from his talks and continued onto others.

[imayid2]

Not for discussion here. He’s a brilliant Talmid Chochom, but I was not able to get yishuv hadaas in the inyan from his talks and continued onto others.

Ok then. I found it excellent and did not continue on to others
To each his own.

[Definitions2]

R' 'Akiva Tatz "Does My Free Will Affect You?"

Fantastic presentation and compelling proof that בחירה can greatly effect other’s destinies.

I'm assuming you're specifically referring to ~30:39 where he says the chovos halevovos and r saadia is talking about in a case where there already is a gezeira.
There's always a gezeira on a person from rosh Hashanah.

He's effectively saying that there is no such opinion that says a baal bechira can't affect another person. (And if there was such an opinion he wouldn't know how to answer the dilemma.)

[Definitions2]

I read this a few times and to be honest I'm still not sure if I understand this fully.
Cmiiw. You're saying in this case the 2 possible reasons why the people got killed was either because they were on extra credit time that was taken away due to the person who released the terrorist.
Or Hashem gave the victim the zchus to die al Kiddush Hashem due to the person who released the terrorist.

@jye I was thinking about what I wrote and realized you possibly can misinterpret my intent. I genuinely didn't understand. I'm not trying to be like a person that derogatorily says you know God's plan.

It's late now and I have to go. I'll try to look at it later tonight again