Author Topic: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan (and what happened in Antarctica)  (Read 4144 times)

Offline EJB

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2018, 07:39:09 PM »
I could be mistaken, but I think the people who dont join the program, will not start to join just because of the minyan access.

I disagree. If, for example, the cruise operator charges 3k, and kosherica charges 6k, there definitely could be people who think the 3k savings is worth the crappier food they'll get if they don't join kosherica, especially if they do get access to minyanim that kosherica also arranges.

Offline zagguru

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2018, 06:33:19 AM »
I disagree. If, for example, the cruise operator charges 3k, and kosherica charges 6k, there definitely could be people who think the 3k savings is worth the crappier food they'll get if they don't join kosherica, especially if they do get access to minyanim that kosherica also arranges.

I actually think its more like less than $1k vs $6k. But eitherway, maybe its just me, but i was raised that if someone walks into your shul on the high holidays and didnt buy a seat, you give him one. I know this isnt a shul, but still, if someone wants the pray, just let the man pray. Dont deny anyone from davening with you.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2018, 06:38:07 AM »
Very nice of you to be mevater on another man's business
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2018, 10:01:14 AM »
This is the same question as taking anything of intangible value that the owner otherwise charges for. Part of the question would be what is Kosherica's product? Presumably minyan is part of it. Also someone needs to pay for the room.

Offline Friars500

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2018, 01:12:22 PM »
I've often wondered this myself. The minayn is part of the service that Kosherica provides.  I don't buy the high holidays service argument because whether someone pays or not for the high holidays is often dictated by ability and/or affiliation with religion.  We should not turn away someone from davening because they can't afford it or even if they can, because they don't feel close enough.  A cruise is a luxury to start with and in essence, we are deciding to not pay the extra money because it is not worth it.

That being said, I would highly doubt that if Kosherica was just about minyan, that anyone would pay any more than a $100 bucks to ensure a room and sefer torah.  I don't see how the minyan portion of Kosherica is anything but a service to make sure that they don't lose customers who insist on minyan.  The extra expense a Kosherica consumer is paying is for the high level Kosher food and entertainment.  Some people want gourmet kosher and jewish entertainment and are willing to pay for it.  If there was a woman's only kosher cruise and no minyan, I doubt the cost would be much lower.  I don't think many (there might be a small percentage) people are going on Kosherica, as opposed to other vacation options, because minyan is expected.  it is more to ensure that people don't nix the idea and I would think that if a somehow a Kosherica group went forward where they only managed 8 men, they would be thrilled to get the help of a few more to complete the minyan.  I would hope that they would welcome people to the minyan   

Offline Dan

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2018, 01:33:07 PM »
I'd have very mixed feelings.

There are literally thousands of hours of logistical work that went into organizing our small kosher cruise. It would seem to be unfair if someone came along and took advantage of a minyan without helping to defray the cost of making that minyan on a boat. A minyan is a small part of the cost of a kosher program, but it's part of the package and getting a torah onboard and obtaining space onboard is no small feat.

OTOH how do you say no to a fellow Jew wanting to daven with a minyan?

At any rate, this happens at Pesach programs all the time where people either sneak in for minyanim, lectures, and entertainment or they ask if they can attend without being part of the program. I think it reflects poorly on someone who would put himself in that situation.
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Offline Friars500

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2018, 01:48:36 PM »
Can you elaborate on that last statement? To me there is no excuse for sneaking in for a lecture, food, entertainment and the similar and I understand ths question of somebody is paying for the minyan (Kosherica pays for the room, pesach program is paying for the hotel, etc.) but what do you mean putting yourself in this situation?

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2018, 01:54:38 PM »
I think he means that there is no excuse for gaming the system by purposely going on cruises that you know have a kosher program and going on your own. But if you happen to be on a cruise and there happens to be a minyan then he doesn't see why they shouldn't let you join.

Offline Dan

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2018, 01:58:31 PM »
Can you elaborate on that last statement? To me there is no excuse for sneaking in for a lecture, food, entertainment and the similar and I understand ths question of somebody is paying for the minyan (Kosherica pays for the room, pesach program is paying for the hotel, etc.) but what do you mean putting yourself in this situation?
If you rent a house for Pesach in Orlando next to a community rented out by a program that has a dedicated house for a minyan for that program with the intention of using that as a minyan.
If you stay in the Fairmont Whistler for Pesach with the intention of buying your own catered food and sneaking into the Four Seasons program for a minyan.
If you buy a cabin on a boat specifically because someone else spent thousands of hours creating a business that offers a minyan for their customers.

You may think you're being a good Jew by sneaking in and davening in said minyan, but I'd posit that you are not. These are businesses offering a minyan to meet their paying clients needs, not community shuls. You are gaming the system at another Jew's expense.
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Offline Friars500

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2018, 02:13:07 PM »
I get that but I have also seen Pesach programs and similar events advertising (or just scheduling) minyanim and different times to cater to early risers, late risers, people who care about davening at specific zmanim and people who want to daven maariv before dinner, people who are coming back from excursions late and everything in between. Many times these minyanim need outsiders, not to mention unscheduled minyanim for participants. It works both ways.  This is what makes it hard. To me since, the minyan, while a service, is very important to programs to offer so people don't nix the program, I would hope they would welcome people, even though these people are taking advantage. My strong guess is most people taking advantage would not be willing to pay the extra cost for Kosherica or for the pesach program so they are not really losing and I can't imagine anyone who is willing to pay for the program saying that they weren't because they can get minyan for free anyway. The far vast majority of people paying is for the gourmet food and Jewish entertainment.

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2018, 02:17:07 PM »
The far vast majority of people paying is for the gourmet food and Jewish entertainment.

This is completely irrelevant.
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Offline Friars500

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2018, 02:20:21 PM »
By itself it would be - but I don't think in conjunction with everything else. 

Also, L'halacha, I don't know how this scenario fits with zeh neheneh v'zeh lo chosur.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2018, 02:25:00 PM »
By itself it would be - but I don't think in conjunction with everything else. 

Also, L'halacha, I don't know how this scenario fits with zeh neheneh v'zeh lo chosur.
Seriously? Here it's karka d'avid l'meigar. Debate whether it's a gavra d'avid l'meigar, but I'd say it is, as he's currently being meigar, just not from the Jewish program
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Offline Friars500

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2018, 02:52:47 PM »
In no way do I mean to minimize the cost and expense to Kosherica.  I just find this not so cut and dry.

As to your avid l'meigar, I don't think an individual person normally rents a space to daven.  Even when making minyanim, people just get ten people together wherever they can (preferably a private place - but not necessarily) and daven.  How many times do people make a minyan on chol hamoed at ball games, amusement parks, museums - all places where you paid an entrance fee.  People congregate and attractions try to accommodate if it doesn't get in the way.  Just curious, as women don't have the chiyuv for minyan, does your analysis change if a female would like to join in?

EDIT - in any event, I really didn't mean to turn this into a halachik conversation.  I think this is more a moral conversation.

Not that it resolves aything but I seem to recall that during yeshiva week, several cruise lines, because of the vast amount of frum people decided to dedicate a dining room for the kosher requests and for davening just because it was simpler.  I would find it interesting how the ships would deal with a large number of kosher guests on a boat that also has a Kosherica cruise.....

Offline ual902

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Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2018, 10:54:01 PM »
Kosherica pays the cruise for a designated room for davening and other social events, there may or may not be a security guard at the door checking for wrist bands, also kosherica staff may not approach you but they can send the ship security.